0:01

Hi, I'm Kai Rizdahl, the host of How

0:03

We Survive. It's a podcast from Marketplace. In

0:06

1986, before I was a

0:08

journalist, I was flying for the Navy.

0:10

Mr. Gorbachev, tear down

0:12

this wall. It was

0:15

the Cold War, and my first deployments were

0:17

intercepting Russian bombers. Today, though,

0:19

there's another threat out there, climate

0:21

change. This could be the warmest

0:23

year on record. Climate change is

0:25

here. Temperatures here are warming faster

0:27

than anywhere on Earth. And while

0:29

the threat seems new, the Pentagon's

0:31

been funding studies on climate change

0:33

since the 1950s. I

0:36

think we will put our troops

0:38

and our forces at higher risk

0:40

if we don't recognize the impact

0:43

of climate change. This season,

0:45

we go to the front lines of the climate

0:47

crisis to see how the military is preparing for

0:49

the threat. Listen to How

0:51

We Survive, wherever you get your podcasts. When

0:59

did you first realize you're interested in working in death care?

1:01

How did that come about? Oh my gosh, when

1:03

I was a little girl. Really? You knew

1:06

that young? Yes, and I

1:08

had this obsession with autopsies, Rima.

1:14

Joelle Simone Maldonado's fascination with

1:16

death began when she was just five

1:18

years old at her great-grandmother's

1:20

funeral. And I can

1:22

remember asking my mom and my grandma, why are

1:24

we watching her sleep? Why is she sleeping in

1:26

that box? Who did her hair

1:28

and her makeup if she's asleep? Why

1:31

did they do all of this only for

1:33

us to go outside and put her in

1:35

this cold, snowy, wet ground? And

1:37

so it's just always been something that

1:39

I've been fascinated and curious about. Were

1:42

there people in your life at the time

1:44

who were intrigued by your curiosity, like your

1:46

family members? Well, I

1:49

won't say necessarily intrigued. I say concerned. Yeah, I

1:51

think that's what I was trying to say. I

1:53

was trying to be kinder about it. Okay, yeah,

1:55

concerned. Concerned, yeah. I

1:58

just don't think people know. knew how

2:00

to handle a child being so

2:03

curious about death because

2:05

they didn't have the answers. So

2:07

that's why I'm so grateful for my uncle. Joelle's

2:11

uncle was an embalmer and a funeral director.

2:14

From the time she was eight, Joelle would spend her

2:16

spring and summer breaks tagging along as he worked.

2:19

Spending every day at the funeral home with him. And

2:21

he would answer all of my questions. He took

2:24

me into the embalming room. And the first thing

2:26

that he told me was that you're entering a

2:28

sacred space. This space isn't about

2:30

you. This space is about caring for

2:32

others in a dignified and respectful way.

2:34

And so you need to carry yourself

2:36

in that way at all times, not

2:38

only in this embalming room, but especially

2:40

in this funeral home. Joelle's

2:43

early obsession with death evolved into a

2:45

career as a funeral director and what

2:48

she calls a sacred grief practitioner. Steeping

2:51

herself into a world so many of

2:53

us spend a lifetime trying to avoid.

3:01

I'm Marie Mecheres, and welcome to This is

3:03

Uncomfortable. In a lot of

3:05

ways, I cannot relate to Joelle. I've

3:07

never liked thinking about death or

3:09

about autopsies. But this

3:12

last year has changed me. After

3:14

experiencing so much grief, after losing

3:16

so many of my family members

3:18

in Gaza in the

3:20

most unimaginable way, I feel

3:23

like really I've had no choice but to

3:25

think about our mortality. Some

3:27

days it honestly feels like the only thing on my mind.

3:31

So when we decided to do this mini-series around

3:33

grief and money, I wanted to

3:35

talk with someone who has an intimate relationship with

3:37

death, someone who's made it their job.

3:40

Joelle got real with me about what it's like to

3:43

work in the death care industry. She shared things I

3:45

would have never thought about. She also

3:47

talked about why it's so important we financially

3:49

prepare for the inevitable. And

3:51

then later in the episode, I share some of

3:53

my own reflections around grief. Even

3:56

though it was really heavy, I left our conversation

3:58

feeling comforted, which is a great way to start. Which is

4:00

not unusual. Like studies show that thinking

4:02

and talking about our mortality is

4:05

actually good for us. It can improve

4:07

our outlook and our relationships. All

4:10

right, here's my conversation with Joelle. Okay,

4:16

so what does mortuary school involve? Believe

4:19

it or not, the closest thing that I

4:22

could relate to is medical

4:24

school, except for instead of learning

4:26

how to take care of patients,

4:28

you're learning the same things the

4:30

anatomy, the biology, the chemistry, the

4:32

physiology, the pathology, all the

4:35

things that you learn in those core classes,

4:37

but they're geared towards those that have passed

4:39

on. They also taught

4:41

her how to run a funeral home, the accounting

4:43

side, navigating state laws, that kind of stuff. And

4:46

she says, of course, there were the things you'd expect, like

4:49

how to embalm a body. She

4:51

also took this class called restorative art, which

4:53

is basically the art of piecing

4:56

human beings back together after

4:58

traumatic loss or

5:00

impact. If a person's

5:02

in an accident, removing glass and

5:04

asphalt and debris from their hair,

5:06

from their face, there's

5:09

artistry to it. There's science

5:11

to it. There's mathematics to

5:13

it. So it's fascinating, which

5:15

is a little uncomfortable to

5:17

say. But mortuary

5:19

school was one of the, if not the best

5:22

experiences in my life because

5:24

I met other individuals who

5:27

had that same passion and

5:29

morbid curiosity as I did. This

5:32

group of people who completely understood

5:35

me at a core level. It

5:38

was also one of the most intense times

5:41

of my life because I took 28 courses in 11

5:45

months. Wow, that's intense. How

5:48

much does it cost to go to mortuary school? For

5:51

the year that I went, it was $12,000. That

5:54

was over what, 13, 14 years ago. She

5:57

luckily didn't have to take out student loans. mother

6:00

covered the cost, which she's very grateful for.

6:03

After mortuary school, Joelle did an apprenticeship

6:05

and eventually worked as a funeral director

6:07

in Atlanta. She'd spend her

6:10

days meeting with families, making funeral arrangements.

6:12

She'd also embalm and cremate bodies

6:14

herself and then do that restorative art

6:17

we talked about. She was making around $60,000

6:19

a year. To make ends meet, she also

6:22

worked as a university office assistant and did hair

6:24

on the side. As a

6:26

funeral director, Joelle was selling services that

6:29

most people wish they didn't have to

6:31

buy and often can't afford. In

6:33

this country, the median cost of a funeral,

6:35

including a viewing and a burial, is

6:37

about $8,300. Early in your career,

6:42

how did it feel talking to people about

6:44

money? Like I can imagine that's the last thing folks

6:46

want to talk about when they're losing a loved one.

6:50

It was so uncomfortable.

6:52

I cannot tell

6:54

you how uncomfortable it is to be

6:57

sitting in front of a family that

6:59

the first thing that they do is

7:02

tell you how much money they don't have.

7:05

I worked in a very affluent

7:07

area. Even those people would

7:09

come in and the first thing they said

7:11

is, you know, I really don't know how

7:13

I'm gonna pay for this or we weren't

7:15

expecting this. This is the worst time that

7:17

this could happen. And so

7:19

it was a gut-wrenching

7:22

conversation. Yeah, how would you navigate

7:24

that? What would you say? Honestly,

7:27

at first I would cry with them.

7:30

I honestly would. But

7:33

as time went on and I had mentors,

7:35

I learned to tell people we're here to

7:37

take care of you and we're

7:39

going to do our best to do this in a way

7:42

that does not leave you destroyed

7:45

financially and that will

7:47

be padded with dignity. Like

7:50

what kinds of things specifically are you discussing with

7:52

them in terms of finances?

7:55

Let's say for example someone calls and says

7:57

that they've lost a loved one. and

8:00

they know that they can't afford to do the bells

8:02

and whistles, I'll let them

8:04

know. You don't have to have a

8:07

wood casket, which tends to

8:09

be more expensive, or you

8:12

don't necessarily have to have

8:14

a car service come

8:17

and pick you up from your home.

8:19

Those are things that we are conditioned

8:21

to believe we have to do because

8:23

they have been done. Maybe that's

8:26

all we've ever seen done in our family's funerals, you

8:28

know? So just

8:30

talking to people and presenting them with

8:33

their options, which was another thing that

8:35

I struggled with, other

8:38

professionals who would make assumptions about people

8:41

coming in the door and only present

8:43

them with what they thought they could afford. This

8:46

was a point that came up a lot during

8:49

my conversation with Joelle. How much it bothers her

8:51

when people in the death care industry make assumptions

8:53

about their clients, who are often in a very

8:55

vulnerable place. It's almost like

8:57

I get into mama bear mode when I'm talking

8:59

about grief, because people

9:02

that are grieving need protection. But

9:05

since COVID, there have been

9:08

an explosion of, and

9:11

I'm using air quotes, death care and

9:13

grief care, companies and

9:15

services and platforms. And

9:19

you can tell that their root is

9:21

money because they see all of the

9:23

loss that we're experiencing collectively as

9:26

an opportunity for gain. Joelle

9:33

made the point that death care, yeah, it's

9:35

always been a business. It generates more than

9:37

$20 billion a year here in the US.

9:40

But increasingly, small family-run funeral homes, which

9:42

have been the backbone of the industry,

9:45

are being bought by private equity firms. These

9:48

firms buy and merge funeral homes into larger

9:50

chains, which can make their services

9:52

more expensive. And

9:54

lately, Silicon Valley has entered the chat

9:57

with new ways to bypass the traditional

9:59

industry altogether. Like, you can now

10:01

use online services to help you write an

10:03

obituary or a will. There's even

10:05

a service that will handle cremation and mail

10:07

you your loved one's ashes. Or

10:10

to help with your grief, you can now talk

10:12

with a deceased loved one through an AI chatbot

10:14

that claims to recreate their essence. These

10:18

services might actually help people, but Joelle's

10:20

argument is that when your goal is

10:22

to optimize grief, then you're

10:24

also probably trying to optimize your bottom line.

10:27

And she says that influx of money into the industry

10:29

can overshadow the importance of compassionate

10:32

care, understanding that each

10:34

person has their own unique needs. Even

10:37

back in mortuary school, Joelle felt like there

10:39

was a lack of cultural competency. And

10:42

by that I mean there was

10:45

no education about caring for

10:47

the religious,

10:49

the cultural, the physical nuance of who

10:51

people are. For example, as a black

10:54

woman, I didn't learn anything about how

10:56

to take care of people that look

10:58

like me, about how to take care

11:00

of our hair, about our specific cosmetic

11:03

and just other

11:05

needs that we have at the end of life that make

11:07

us unique as human beings, right?

11:10

And so that was really frustrating. And

11:12

then as I got into the profession as

11:14

an apprentice, I

11:16

had experiences in embalming

11:18

rooms with seasoned individuals

11:21

that disgusted me from there

11:23

being jokes about black male

11:25

genitalia to witnessing

11:28

a seasoned funeral director cutting

11:30

off a woman's braids from

11:33

her scalp, not knowing

11:35

that he was cutting off her hair in that

11:37

process. And when they

11:39

view their loved one for the last time, they

11:42

look a complete hot mess because the embalmer

11:44

didn't know what they were doing. Not

11:47

because they didn't try, but

11:50

simply because they just don't know that

11:52

perhaps someone's hair should be handled

11:55

this way or perhaps someone's

11:57

makeup should be done this way and

12:00

that way or this type of

12:02

dress is appropriate versus not this type

12:04

of dress. So I mean there's so

12:06

many implications. Yeah, these are things

12:08

I would not think about but make a lot of

12:10

sense, especially when that's

12:12

the last image that you'll likely have of

12:14

your loved one, like

12:16

the last physical one. Yes.

12:19

That's a very important moment. We

12:22

call it a memory picture. Mm.

12:25

That last time that you see your loved

12:27

one, that viewing, that creates what's called a

12:29

memory picture for the family and the community.

12:37

Talking with Joelle, I can tell that she's always

12:39

felt called to do this work. But

12:41

as it goes with any job, do it for

12:43

long enough and the rosy tint fades. She

12:46

grew frustrated by the lack of cultural knowledge in

12:49

the industry, and she underestimated the

12:51

amount of emotional labor this job demands. Like

12:54

she'd want to connect with her clients as

12:56

a human, as someone who understands how grief

12:58

can pull you under. But

13:01

doing that day after day after

13:03

day after day, it

13:05

wore her down. I

13:07

want you to imagine being a funeral

13:10

director there to do your job and

13:12

make arrangements. And now not only have

13:14

you sat in the seat of grief

13:16

with this person, but now

13:19

you're carrying that and

13:22

not just the story, the emotion behind

13:24

that story, because of course there are

13:27

tears and there's air

13:29

punching and there's just emotion behind it.

13:31

I call

13:33

the arrangement room the confession box.

13:36

People come into funeral homes and

13:39

confess things that you would not

13:41

believe, about anger or

13:43

experiences, or he molested

13:45

me when I was six years old

13:47

and I can't be mad at him

13:49

anymore. Or who am I going to

13:51

be mad at now about anything because

13:54

I blamed him or her for everything. Or

13:58

just people come in and confess. affairs

14:00

or just anything. If you're

14:03

not aware of how to process or

14:05

I don't even want to say compartmentalize

14:07

but purge, you know what I mean?

14:10

Yourself of that energy on top

14:12

of having those uncomfortable conversations about

14:14

finances, on top of

14:16

the uncomfortable family dynamics, on

14:18

top of not being able to pay your bills. Well

14:21

that's what I was also wondering like how do

14:23

you manage your own emotions and your mental health

14:25

while supporting people through such profoundly

14:27

difficult experiences? Like do

14:30

you experience burnout, compassion, fatigue? I

14:33

burned out. I have experienced

14:36

compassion, fatigue. I think

14:38

coming to the realization that at some

14:40

point in this journey I'm going to

14:42

die and everyone that I know is

14:44

going to die, it became not so

14:47

much a curiosity but a realization of

14:49

mortality. Did that give

14:51

you a moment of pause? Were you thinking

14:53

maybe this industry is not for me or

14:55

maybe I should pursue another career? I don't

15:00

necessarily think that I thought it wasn't

15:02

for me. I wondered if I could

15:04

handle it. I think

15:07

a lot of that

15:10

depression was just not

15:13

realizing how grief affects people and

15:16

not realizing that not

15:18

everyone gets to say goodbye. Sometimes people

15:21

are on their way to work, have

15:23

all intentions of coming home later and

15:25

boom they get an accident on the

15:27

freeway. I

15:29

had a lot of anxiety attacks during that time, right?

15:33

Seeing people who had died in car

15:35

accidents and then I'd have to go

15:37

drive home, you know what I mean?

15:39

I can't even imagine how traumatic and

15:42

how difficult it must have been to be

15:44

exposed to that every day. It really

15:46

hit me hard and

15:49

I also had an experience where I

15:53

just got tired of seeing young black men

15:56

die by gun violence. It

15:58

was back to back to back to back to back. and

16:00

it broke something inside of me. And

16:02

I decided to step away for about

16:04

six months. I didn't

16:07

do anything death care related. And

16:09

I'm so grateful for that time because

16:12

I went to therapy and

16:14

I got help and it

16:16

changed my life. I learned

16:19

to not only establish but

16:21

enforce boundaries, which is important.

16:24

And I tapped into my

16:26

spirituality and

16:29

began to recognize what I do

16:32

as a sacred exchange of energy. Yes,

16:35

it's a beautiful thing to sit in

16:37

the seat and be trusted to care

16:39

for people while they're grieving and to

16:41

care for the deceased. But

16:43

at the same time, it's an exchange. I

16:45

have to get something out of this. And

16:48

it's not always monetary. I have to find

16:50

joy in what I do. I

16:52

have to find peace at the end of the

16:54

day. That's the energetic

16:56

exchange. You were able

16:58

to recharge after that and get back into the

17:00

work. Yes. Joelle

17:03

worked in funeral homes for a few more years. Then

17:06

she quit her job and decided to do her own thing.

17:09

She founded the Multicultural Death and Grief Care

17:11

Academy to try to offer solutions to the

17:13

problems that had troubled her. And

17:16

so the work that I do

17:18

now is completely focused on educating

17:20

other death care and end of

17:22

life professionals, whether they be doula

17:24

or medical professionals about those nuances

17:26

and about that specific care for

17:29

Black individuals. So what

17:31

we aim to do is basically honor,

17:34

preserve, and educate others to

17:36

serve from a multicultural lens.

17:39

She offers courses like how to shampoo

17:41

and detangle Black hair or remove braids

17:43

or how to do makeup on melanin

17:45

skin. And she still

17:47

works with grieving families, helping them navigate the

17:50

financial side of things, which

17:52

we'll get into in a minute. After

17:55

the break, I asked Joelle how we can all

17:57

better prepare for the inevitable, and we

17:59

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19:26

This is Uncomfortable is supported by Giving Done

19:28

Right. On This is

19:30

Uncomfortable, we know how hard it can be

19:32

to discuss our finances, how money shapes our

19:34

identities, and how it can influence our relationships.

19:37

And that goes for how and where we choose

19:39

to donate our money, too. We

19:42

want to share another podcast that tackles these hard

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subjects when it comes to charitable giving, called

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Giving Done Right. It provides insight,

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inspiration, and practical advice on how to

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is a complex and deeply personal process. It

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and even the donors themselves. The

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Giving Done Right podcast helps you understand all

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whether you donate a few hundred dollars a year, a

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making more long-term giving plans. Learn

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to give in a smarter and more effective

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manner. Listen to Giving Done Right

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wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome

20:29

back. So these days when

20:31

Joelle works with families, she's

20:33

often helping them navigate the emotional minefield of

20:36

grief. But she also gives

20:38

practical advice like how to plan so

20:40

you can make life easier and hopefully

20:42

conflict free for the people you'll leave

20:44

behind. I say to people,

20:47

planning for your death is the ultimate autonomy.

20:50

And not necessarily that doesn't say that you're

20:52

planning how or when you're taking control of

20:54

what's going to happen when it happens. Like

20:57

Joelle says, it's helpful, of course, to create a

20:59

will that we update regularly, even if it's a

21:01

modest one. We should also

21:03

consider organizing important documents, you know,

21:05

our insurance policies, any retirement statements,

21:08

maybe even designate someone to handle our

21:10

digital footprint, like our social media accounts

21:12

or any online subscriptions. And

21:15

if you're able to, she says you can start saving.

21:17

You can walk into any funeral home and

21:19

ask them to open a trust and

21:22

you can go the route of putting $100 a month in

21:24

that trust. You

21:27

can pay towards your

21:29

funeral, your casket, your cemetery

21:32

plot, your vault, your

21:34

cremation. So just

21:36

having things like that in place

21:38

or even just having money

21:42

in your bank account available when

21:44

you pass away and having a

21:46

designated person that can have

21:49

access to those funds and

21:51

pre-planning isn't always financial.

21:53

Sometimes pre-planning could be

21:55

I want to wear this dress and not

21:57

that dress. And the reason

21:59

that makes things easier for your loved

22:01

ones when you pass away is because

22:03

that is

22:05

something people stress over. What should I

22:08

bury mom in? What would dad look

22:10

best in? So picking those items out

22:12

yourself. What would you say

22:14

to someone who's listening to this and is like, I

22:18

am young, I'm healthy, like I don't need

22:20

to worry about this. I don't want to

22:22

worry about this. We're

22:25

all going to die. And unfortunately,

22:27

we don't know how and we

22:29

don't know when. None of us

22:31

want to think

22:34

today is our last day, especially when

22:36

we're young and healthy and we have

22:39

everything to look forward to. But the

22:41

only thing that we really are promised

22:43

to look forward to is death. Yeah.

22:47

If I had to sit down tomorrow and

22:49

go through my bank account, you know, and

22:51

do like the financials and try to prepare

22:53

for that, that that feels like pulling teeth.

22:55

I don't

22:58

want to do that. I'm assuming that you've

23:00

done it. So

23:03

here's the thing. I felt

23:05

like I was 100% ready prior to 2020. Right. Okay. In 2021, I

23:11

met my husband and I got married in

23:14

2022. I don't feel

23:16

as if we are ready yet. I

23:18

see. Yeah. You're a unit now. It's

23:20

different. I'm a unit. Yes. Also,

23:24

it shifted culturally. My

23:26

husband is of the Baha'i faith.

23:29

Right. Oh. The reason that

23:31

that's such a big conversation on

23:34

a deeper level is that when he passes

23:36

away, no matter where in the world we

23:38

are, he can't go more than an hour

23:40

outside of the place where he died to

23:42

be buried. What if

23:44

we're someplace and it's like

23:46

a quarter to his faith?

23:49

Right. Okay. We travel a lot. Let's

23:51

say we're in Europe and

23:54

we can't go more than an hour away from where

23:56

he died to bury him. Do I want

23:59

to go to Europe? to be

24:01

buried there? And it's like you

24:04

just everything is so uncertain right

24:06

I mean you just don't know

24:08

and we were

24:10

having these conversations with

24:12

my grandmother you know with

24:14

my family around my grandmother's death recently she

24:17

was in Gaza and she

24:19

evacuated because she was

24:24

very sick she had cancer and

24:27

luckily we were able to get her out of Gaza and

24:31

she was in Egypt and you

24:35

know she never intended to rest

24:37

in Egypt but

24:39

there was no other choice right and

24:43

that was a very very difficult time

24:45

where anything

24:47

that she'd planned would have gone out the

24:49

window anyway right because we're in a new

24:51

country and it's all happening so

24:53

quickly and it was

24:56

a very eye-opening experience for me because I

24:59

think I didn't realize a lot about our

25:01

own rituals and Islam around burials

25:03

and you know I think

25:06

this is similar to other cultures but

25:08

you have to bury your loved one

25:10

within 24 hours and

25:15

but it was a very traumatic experience because it's

25:17

you know we're like trying to

25:19

figure out how to pay for it and how

25:21

to like do the logistics and we don't have

25:23

a car and where's the cemetery but we also

25:25

want it to be in a cemetery with other

25:27

Palestinians and it just it

25:30

really brought to light to me that no

25:33

matter how much planning you do there's going to be

25:36

so much out of your control. You're

25:38

100% correct there are things that are

25:40

fixed right like a person has passed

25:42

away but then you

25:45

also have those variables about well what

25:47

if we're at war what if we're

25:51

we're exiled

25:53

from our homes right? Yeah.

26:03

Along with my grandmother, I have lost

26:05

dozens of other relatives this last year.

26:08

Entire branches of my family have

26:11

been killed by Israeli airstrikes. It's

26:15

unfathomable. I talked about

26:17

this with my dad in an episode last season. Since

26:21

last October, the grief has been

26:23

inescapable. I find

26:25

myself reaching for answers to questions that

26:28

shouldn't exist. I

26:32

honestly don't know if I would have been able to have this

26:34

conversation with you a couple years ago. Why?

26:39

Because I just avoided thinking about death. And

26:42

I think I've been forced to confront

26:44

it this last year with all of

26:46

the family members I've

26:48

lost. And

26:54

it's definitely

26:57

made it easier to

26:59

talk about our mortality in

27:03

a way that actually feels kind of freeing. Thinking

27:07

about immortality, like it allows me to get

27:10

outside of my head to take some distance

27:12

from the daily dramas

27:14

of my life. It gives me

27:16

perspective. And so it has been

27:18

this, I hate using the word

27:20

gift during a very traumatic and difficult time,

27:22

but it has been an unexpected gift. And

27:25

I'm curious if you've had a similar

27:27

perspective shift in that way. I'm

27:31

a completely different person, Reema. And

27:33

that goes back to what we were talking about,

27:36

about that spirituality and becoming more spiritual. I

27:39

don't see myself as this

27:41

person that's responsible for

27:44

completing these tasks. The

27:47

question I am learning to ask

27:49

myself from my

27:51

heart is, is this useful?

27:54

Who can use this? But

27:57

I do believe that whatever... your

28:01

grief journey is the ultimate reward

28:03

for that journey, for

28:07

lack of a better word, is the revelation

28:09

of the gift that you need to continue

28:11

upon that path. And

28:13

that gift, I've seen it

28:15

take multiple forms. Like some

28:18

people become activists, for example, think

28:21

about mad, right? Mothers against drunk

28:23

drivers. Some people become,

28:25

for lack of better words,

28:28

a better human being, you know? A

28:30

husband loses his wife to cancer that's

28:32

been an angel her entire life. And

28:34

he becomes a better

28:36

person for watching her go through her

28:38

journey, you know? So,

28:41

yeah, it's

28:43

different for everyone. That's a very good point.

28:45

And it also is, I'm sure, comes

28:49

down to the circumstances of your life and what else is

28:51

going on with you and... Your relationship

28:53

with that person, the way that

28:55

person died, even if you had

28:57

the best relationship, what were the

28:59

circumstances of your relationship when they

29:01

passed? Were there things left

29:03

unsaid, you know? And that's the

29:06

thing. Like a lot of people talk about the

29:09

Kubla Ross five or seven stages of

29:11

grief. And while

29:13

I think they have merit for what they were

29:15

intended for, that was created

29:17

to address a very specific type

29:19

of grief, which is anticipatory, where

29:22

perhaps you have the opportunity to

29:24

make amends and say goodbye and

29:26

prepare yourself mentally for the loss.

29:28

But that doesn't apply always, you

29:30

know? No, no, not at all.

29:32

I remember a woman told me

29:35

that she, her husband

29:37

died of a heart attack or something at work, right,

29:39

and she, you know, they were older

29:41

and she was okay with the fact that he

29:44

had transitioned. She wasn't happy about it, but

29:46

she was okay. But after

29:49

finding out that he had passed away, she

29:52

got home and she walked

29:54

into their bedroom and she tripped over

29:56

his shoes. And she

29:58

said, when she did that, she... She

30:00

just lost it. She was

30:02

so angry at him for leaving those shoes

30:04

in her way, but she realized

30:07

that that would never happen again. That

30:10

was that moment when it stuck in her, that he was

30:13

gone. Well, I think

30:15

sometimes we don't even know that we're grieving,

30:17

you know, like these last few months. I've

30:19

just been, there've been times where, I don't

30:22

know, I'm like,

30:24

am I okay? Like would I have

30:26

done this normally? Would I have felt this ordinarily? I've

30:30

learned through working with others

30:32

and helping others navigate their

30:34

journey, that a lot of

30:36

times people need permission to

30:39

not be okay. If

30:42

I heard someone say something like, oh, I shouldn't

30:44

be feeling this way about, you know, losing my

30:46

mom 10 years ago, you lost

30:50

your mom. You're never going

30:52

to have another mom. You only had one mom. I

30:55

don't think that would ever go away. I

31:00

don't think that loss ever is

31:03

truly resolved. And

31:07

it's the craziest thing in the world to me

31:10

that we have created such

31:14

expectations on ourselves that even

31:16

in loss, we have to

31:18

seek permission to grieve.

31:22

And also it's like grieving. Maybe

31:24

I even heard you say this in a different

31:26

interview. It's not just grieving someone you love, right?

31:28

It's we're always grieving when things change,

31:30

things are ever changing. Yes.

31:34

And we're all in different stages and

31:37

facets of grief. I

31:45

like to think of grief as an extension of our

31:47

love, which gets at the final

31:49

point Joelle made as we are wrapping up our

31:51

conversation. She said that the greatest

31:54

inheritance we can leave behind is in the way

31:56

we loved people and how we lived out

31:58

our values. I

32:00

think about my grandfather, even though, like, he

32:03

left homes and properties and money and

32:05

all those things, right? I don't really

32:08

think about that. I think about his

32:10

stories. I think about his

32:12

character. I think about the

32:14

fact that when I introduce someone

32:16

and they recognize my family name,

32:19

the impact that he had on

32:21

their lives, right? You

32:23

can plan for that by waking

32:25

up every day and saying, I'm

32:28

going to tell my story today. So

32:33

we pass on things that are intangible.

32:37

And I think those are the things that

32:39

matter most. And I know that sounds contradictory

32:41

to plan for your funeral and choose your

32:44

casket, but those are the things that

32:46

matter. Working

32:52

on this series about grief, I've

32:54

honestly worried about whether you all would want to listen.

32:57

Like there's so much pain in the world and sometimes

32:59

all you want is relief. But

33:02

if you've listened this far, you probably know

33:04

that dealing with grief head on can be

33:06

healing. This writer I

33:08

love, Pema Shodron, she's a Buddhist nun who

33:10

talks about this idea of groundlessness. You

33:13

know, when life feels out of control, she

33:15

says if you embrace that unsettling feeling,

33:18

if you don't run away or try

33:20

to distract yourself, it can

33:22

actually push you to a deeper sense of connection

33:24

and purpose. Some

33:26

days that idea really resonates with me.

33:28

Like I'll try to channel the grief

33:30

in a way that feels meaningful and

33:32

energizing, you know, by spending time in

33:34

community or getting clear with myself about

33:36

what really matters and actually prioritizing that.

33:39

And then there are other days when the

33:41

grief and anger make me just want to

33:43

retreat. I

33:45

haven't felt okay for a while now, but

33:49

my conversation with Joelle reminded me that

33:51

we don't have to experience our grief

33:53

alone. Amanda, who I talked with

33:55

in the first episode in this series, she told me

33:58

something that really touched me. that

34:00

in the weeks after her dad's death, she

34:02

listened to this show while sorting through his things. It

34:05

means so much to me to know that some of

34:07

y'all are listening during really tough times, that

34:09

this show might bring some amount of comfort. And

34:13

this series showed me that it really is a two-way

34:15

street. It's helped me work through my own

34:17

pain. So I just

34:19

wanted to say genuinely, thank you all for listening,

34:22

and for being a bright spot during a dark

34:24

time. All

34:46

right, that is all for this week's show. If

34:48

you have any thoughts about this episode or just want

34:50

to reach out, you can always email me and the

34:52

team at uncomfortable at marketplace dot

34:54

org. We love hearing from you all.

34:57

Also, be sure to check out our newsletter

34:59

this week. Our producer Alice Wilder wrote about

35:01

the inspiration for this series, a sort of

35:03

behind-the-scenes look. And we also included

35:06

some resources that have personally helped us navigate

35:08

our grief. If you're not already

35:10

signed up for that, you can do that by clicking that link

35:12

in the show notes. This

35:15

episode was produced by Alice Wilder and

35:17

me, Rima Hreis. Zoe

35:19

Saunders is the show's senior producer. Jasmine

35:21

Romero is our editor. Sound design and

35:24

audio engineering by Drew Jostad. Bridget

35:26

Bodner is Marketplace's director of podcasts. And

35:29

Caitlin Ash is supervising senior producer. Francesca

35:31

Levy is the executive director of digital. Neil

35:34

Scarborough is vice president and general manager of

35:36

Marketplace. And the theme music

35:38

is by Wonderly. All

35:41

right. Thanks again. Understanding

36:07

personal finance can feel like an

36:09

impossible task, but it doesn't have

36:12

to be that way. I'm

36:14

Janelia Spinal, and on Financially Inclined,

36:17

I'll guide you through simple money

36:19

lessons that will change your financial

36:21

future. Learn about

36:23

credit scores, how to avoid scams,

36:25

and why you need a savings

36:27

account. Plus, we explore

36:30

the brain science behind FOMO and

36:32

what you can do to make

36:34

smarter money decisions. Listen

36:36

to Financially Inclined wherever you get

36:38

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