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Match. Wait, what? Yep,

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double the cashback is something so good

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you might do a triple take. I'm

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Oprah Winfrey. Welcome to Super

0:43

Soul Conversations, the podcast.

0:46

I believe that one of the most valuable gifts you can

0:48

give yourself is

0:50

time. Taking time

0:52

to be more fully present.

0:55

Your journey to become more inspired

0:57

and connected to the deeper world

0:59

around us starts right

1:02

now. Paul

1:04

Williams is a songwriting legend.

1:06

From co-writing Barbra Streisand's Evergreen

1:09

and Kermit the Frog's beloved

1:11

classic, The Rainbow Connection, to

1:13

The Carpenters' defining hit, We've

1:15

Only Just Begun. Yes,

1:18

he wrote all those. He's now

1:20

in his fifth decade in the music

1:22

business and still thriving. At

1:24

the 2014 Grammys, Paul accepted the

1:26

award for album of the year

1:29

after collaborating with the cutting edge

1:31

duo Daft Punk. But at the

1:33

height of his fame, Paul says

1:35

an addiction to alcohol and drugs

1:37

nearly destroyed him. He says it

1:39

took hitting bottom before he could discover

1:41

the real happiness that he feels today. His

1:44

remarkable story of recovery serves as

1:46

the inspiration for his

1:49

new book, Gratitude and Trust.

1:52

It's a collaboration with his longtime friend, author,

1:55

director, and screenwriter, Tracy Jackson. She

1:57

wrote the screenplay for the film,

1:59

Confessions of a Drug Addict. as shopaholic and says

2:01

shopping has always been her daily

2:03

addiction. Though never addicted

2:05

to drugs or alcohol, Tracy says

2:08

for years she numbed her

2:10

pain with food, with clothes

2:12

and men. Paul

2:14

and Tracy believe that recovery is

2:16

not just for addicts and facing

2:18

any level of addiction is

2:21

sacred work. What is so

2:23

amazing is Paul you have an Oscar, three

2:26

Grammys, two Golden

2:29

Globes and I read that

2:31

next to having your children that your

2:33

greatest accomplishment is what is

2:35

written about in gratitude and trust. Your

2:37

greatest accomplishment is your sobriety.

2:40

My sobriety. You know 24 years

2:42

of actually

2:44

feeling connected to the rest of the world.

2:46

You know in sobriety when you

2:48

hit your knees and you say I don't know what

2:50

I'm doing and I desperately need help. When you reach

2:52

out and say help me to somebody and you let

2:55

go of ego and you go I'm desperate and I'm

2:57

dying. You all of a

2:59

sudden connect with the world on a level

3:01

that is so wonderfully intimate and nurturing

3:03

and healthy. The best 24

3:06

years of my life. Because it was what March

3:08

1990 right? March

3:10

15th 1990. March 15th 1990. And

3:13

it's been the most remarkable just to

3:15

be sitting here today at this moment. You

3:18

know for us this is a remarkable

3:21

remarkable gift. So this

3:23

is what's fascinating. I've read a lot of

3:26

books obviously had a lot of people on

3:28

the show talking about different ideas but the

3:30

concept of a book for

3:32

recovery for people who aren't

3:34

really serious addicts

3:37

works if you are an addict but also works if

3:39

you're not addicted in the traditional way. How

3:42

did you come up with that? I've had a lot

3:45

of friends in recovery over the years and I'm

3:47

not an addict as it says in the book

3:49

but there's something about recovery and the guidelines and

3:51

the principles that I think

3:53

are so foundational and so spiritual and all

3:55

of my friends who are really down and

3:57

out who rose to a maze.

4:00

and ended up being the most honest, trustworthy,

4:03

competent, responsible human beings in my

4:05

life. And I thought, at one point, I

4:07

thought, everybody should just be required

4:09

to go through recovery. Everyone should just take one

4:12

round of recovery to learn

4:14

rigorous honesty, to learn how to

4:16

say I'm sorry, to learn how to own their faults. And

4:18

I think that we all have things, and

4:21

we list them in the book, but we're all

4:23

addicted to something. We're all stuck

4:25

somewhere in patterns, no matter how evolved we

4:27

are. Every day is a learning, and

4:29

I think we can all benefit from these principles,

4:32

and have, and do. By

4:34

literally gratitude and trust.

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4:52

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4:55

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5:09

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number one pediatrician recommended brand. So

5:25

let's talk about you for a minute. It's

5:27

amazing you are alive. Ew,

5:29

oh my God. Don't you think it's

5:32

amazing? Don't you wake up sometimes saying, how

5:34

did I get to be here? Because listen,

5:36

not many people survive drinking vodka

5:38

in the shower for years

5:42

and doing cocaine. A

5:44

ton of cocaine, a ton of cocaine. You know,

5:46

alcohol made me feel big enough to deal with

5:48

the rest of the world. Cocaine made me feel

5:50

like I could shoot basketball for money. It's an

5:53

old one, but it's the absolute truth. Yeah. You

5:55

know, you go from being this weird little guy,

5:57

you know, giving shots to grow when I was.

6:00

I was like nine years old, it had the

6:02

opposite effect. I didn't slow my body clock

6:04

down, didn't hit puberty. You were given shots

6:06

to grow, but it did. It closed off

6:08

the bone, so it made me shorter. It

6:10

made me shorter. But it also messed

6:12

up my body clock. So I'm in high school and I haven't

6:14

hit puberty yet. Didn't hit puberty until I was like early 20s.

6:17

Really? So I'm different. And

6:20

I feel different. And what's interesting is

6:22

that I was five years sober before

6:24

I felt what that felt like. Because

6:27

long before I drank alcoholically, and

6:30

that meant I didn't feel what was uncomfortable to

6:32

feel. You numbed it. Yeah. You

6:35

numbed it. You numbed it with your thinking,

6:37

you numbed it with your drinking and using

6:39

it. And we all do it in different

6:41

ways. You were saying in the book you talk

6:43

about how you loved smoking cigarettes. I

6:46

loved a lot of things. I loved smoking

6:48

cigarettes. I made really bad choices with men.

6:51

You loved shopping. I have a shopping problem.

6:54

And I think that we

6:56

all numb ourselves. And what Paul just said

6:58

is so true that we all push the

7:00

pain away in certain ways. And

7:02

I can't imagine a personal life who hasn't said

7:04

at one point, this is my last cigarette, my

7:07

last purchase, my last car. We've all said it.

7:09

We've all said it my last time. I have

7:11

a drink the last time I go gambling. It's

7:14

every human in the world makes this claim.

7:17

And that's addiction. That is I have

7:19

to go back for more, even though

7:22

my conscious self, my intelligent self, is

7:24

telling me this is bad for me.

7:27

Does every person though have to hit rock bottom?

7:30

So you had this behavior for

7:32

how long before you hit rock bottom? I

7:34

was 49 years old. You

7:37

know, it's progressive disease. I don't know when I

7:39

crossed that magical line from use to abuse to

7:41

addiction. But somewhere along in

7:43

the late 70s, the 70s were so productive

7:45

for me. The 80s I was

7:47

hiding. I joked that I did 49 Tonight

7:50

Shows, I remember six. And

7:52

I went from that and all that attention to

7:55

hiding out in my bedroom. But didn't you start

7:57

just sort of by accident? Weren't you on the. of

8:00

a Marlon Brando movie and just picked up

8:02

a guitar. Did I read that? Sometimes, you

8:05

know, there are angels of change. They come

8:07

swooming into our lives. Sometimes they suggest you

8:09

write a book. Sometimes they say, pick up

8:11

that guitar. And yeah, I

8:13

just, you know, when I was a kid,

8:16

I listened to the Great American Songbook. And

8:18

is it true we've only just begun, was written as a

8:20

bank commercial at first? All the romantic beginnings of

8:22

a bank commercial. You know, Crocker

8:24

Bank, you've only got a long way to go.

8:27

We'd like to help you get through the Crocker

8:29

Bank. Roger Nichols and I expanded it as a

8:31

complete song. And never in our wildest dreams imagined

8:33

it would be a hit. And

8:36

then an angel sang it. And when

8:38

Karen Carpenter sings your songs, you are

8:40

blessed. And then Evergreen, you win

8:42

the Oscar for Evergreen. You and

8:45

Barbara hugging on stage. I know, I

8:47

know. And you're walking on

8:49

that stage and you're looking out at,

8:51

there's Kirk Douglas, there's Burt Lancaster, there's

8:54

all these people that are these iconic

8:56

greats. And it's some

8:58

place back inside, all

9:00

the charm and all the wit and all the,

9:02

aren't I just wonderful up here on this stage

9:05

is a little piece of poly that goes, you

9:07

don't belong here. So you drink.

9:09

So you drink. You drink. But

9:11

isn't it amazing? Cause the thing that

9:13

you just, your whole life never even

9:16

could imagine that could happen to you.

9:18

That you're traveling in those same circles

9:20

with those kinds of people. And now

9:22

you're there. And that what

9:24

you do because of the unworthiness is

9:26

choose drinking and choose alcohol. Not

9:28

consciously. Not consciously. Yeah. Cause

9:31

consciously you think you're the man,

9:33

right? Yeah. Yeah.

9:36

But the reward for that is

9:39

incomparable to the reward of

9:41

talking to another alcoholic and knowing that we're

9:43

both giving each

9:45

other added breath, added life

9:48

in the exchange of recognizing a higher power

9:50

working through both of us in this moment.

9:52

I have never felt more useful in my

9:55

life. I would not trade a day of

9:57

this for all of that. Wow. The

10:01

original inspiration for Alcoholics Anonymous was

10:04

a Christian movement called the Oxford

10:06

Group, which taught that faith

10:08

in God could transform broken

10:10

lives. Paul and Tracy

10:12

researched the Oxford Group to develop

10:14

what they call their Six Affirmations

10:17

of Personal Freedom. So

10:19

let's talk about the Six

10:21

Affirmations of Personal Freedom.

10:24

Now, Alcoholics Anonymous has the 12, the

10:26

12-step program. How is it that you

10:28

all determined that we can get by

10:30

on the Six? Well,

10:34

we weren't going to rip off another program to begin

10:36

with, and something that's as

10:38

embedded into everyone's conscious. We

10:40

went back to the Oxford Group and

10:42

we looked at the original tenants and

10:45

they had six. And we also thought six

10:47

is doable. It's a lot. Twelve is a

10:49

lot to place on someone who's not really

10:51

at rock bottom. So, you know, the people

10:53

that we really want to reach out to

10:56

have what we call

10:58

life-limiting behaviors, not life-threatening. So, okay,

11:00

the first one is something needs

11:02

to change and it's probably me.

11:04

Yeah, that's number one. Yeah, and

11:06

that probably is immense, I think, because

11:08

it allows you to comfortably put on

11:11

the jacket of change, you know. Tracy

11:13

writes a lot about relationships where you're

11:15

in a revolving door relationship, where you're

11:17

fighting back and forth, back and forth.

11:19

That person may never change. But

11:21

if I have the capacity to respond

11:23

to them in a different fashion, I'm

11:26

capable of changing the dynamics of the

11:28

relationship. Well, what I say to people all the time is

11:30

that line in the Wizard of Oz where Glinda the

11:32

Good Witch says to the Wicked Witch of the West go

11:34

away, you have no power here. She says

11:36

it because you only have power in your own territory. You

11:39

only can control your own territory. So,

11:42

what you're saying with the

11:44

first affirmation is that

11:46

you have power in your own territory.

11:49

If something needs to change, it's

11:51

you. It's you, always you. It's the one thing you

11:53

know you can change. You're empowering yourself in a huge

11:55

way that your life is yours. I love number two. I

11:58

don't know how to do this, but something in... inside

12:00

me does. God. Yeah.

12:03

The big amigo. I call him the big

12:05

amigo. Because, you know, before

12:07

I walk on stage, I give it up. Because

12:10

I'll get scared before I walk on stage. I mean, there

12:12

can be 18 people out there. And

12:16

as I walk on the stage, I say, I don't know how to

12:18

do this. But something inside me

12:20

does. Whoa, I love that. Oh, it's

12:22

so empowering. I found that even just when

12:24

you say it out loud, it's just so

12:27

comforting. Yeah. I

12:30

will learn from my mistakes and not defend them.

12:32

That's where we all get hung up. That's

12:34

the biggie. That's the biggie. We spend so

12:36

much time defending our

12:38

mistakes, hiding from our mistakes, making

12:40

excuses from our mistakes, and

12:42

never just looking at them and going, whoa,

12:44

this is me. This is

12:46

me. This is my mistake. I'm going to clean up my side of

12:49

the street. And we do something

12:51

which I call the emotional sherpa. We

12:53

carry around so much baggage of

12:56

all the stuff we've done in our life. And

12:58

we carry it around. And it's heavy. And

13:01

we unload it onto others, which is completely

13:03

unfair. And a mistake is our best teacher.

13:05

And if you just take them and go,

13:08

I'm not a bad person, I

13:10

made a mistake. And I've learned a lesson.

13:12

And that's a good day. Any day you

13:15

learn a lesson is a great day. The

13:17

other thing, though, that number four, I will

13:19

right the wrongs wherever possible. That's

13:21

hard. That's. Yeah.

13:25

Well, you know, what you can do is, if

13:27

you can't make that direct adjustment to somebody, go

13:29

to them and say, you know, there is mud

13:31

on your carpeting. And then it's from my boots.

13:33

And I'd like to clean it up. That person

13:36

may be gone. So you can

13:38

decorate your life with acts of kindness

13:40

in other directions with other people. You

13:44

can be a sweeter person. And you can, I

13:47

mean, to me, I feel if I'm doing something

13:49

that would appear to be an act of kindness,

13:51

I feel as if I'm being suddenly useful. I

13:54

feel just in my own chemistry.

13:57

Because your life changes when you shift

13:59

your paradigm. to service for anything. But

14:01

it's for so many years, you know, to

14:03

hide my responsibility, back to the, you know,

14:05

learn from my mistakes, is, you

14:08

know, I became a chronic and habitual liar

14:10

to hide my addiction, to hide my behavior.

14:13

And that's exhausting, Oprah, that's exhausting.

14:15

Yeah, pretending to be something that

14:17

you're not. It's got to be

14:19

exhausting. At Amika Insurance,

14:22

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15:00

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15:03

Don't forget to pair Pampers diapers with

15:05

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15:15

mess. mess. For trusted protection,

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trust Pampers, the number one pediatrician

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recommended brand. I

15:21

love the final, I will live my life in love

15:23

and service, gratitude and trust. How is

15:26

it that you all can, because there are all

15:28

these innumerable virtues, why

15:31

gratitude and trust? If

15:35

you have gratitude, you don't have room for fear.

15:37

And that was one of the biggest things, is

15:39

that fear holds us back so much. Fear

15:41

is what causes so much of our bad behavior and

15:44

our poor choices. And gratitude can't

15:46

live with fear, in the same way that love

15:49

really can't live with fear. So if you're grateful,

15:51

you move to that place of love. And then

15:53

how does trust? Trust is God. Of

15:55

course. And trust is soul, right? Trust

15:58

is soul and God. And those two. or we

16:00

call them the soul sisters. Trust is knowing that there's

16:02

a power greater than yourself at work here. And

16:04

trusting it will all work out. Yeah. I'm

16:07

grateful for everything that has ever happened in my life,

16:09

the good and the bad. And you roll it into

16:11

your life. If you're in a car wreck, you're grateful

16:14

that nobody was hurt. If they're hurt, you're grateful that

16:16

they didn't die. To die, you're grateful for the chance

16:18

you had to know them. It's

16:20

an expandable gratitude, one size fits all. Put

16:22

it in your heart and use it. Songwriting

16:27

legend Paul Williams says, when he

16:29

learned to embrace community and connection,

16:31

his life opened up in ways

16:34

he never imagined. Over

16:36

20 years ago, Paul was sleep deprived

16:38

and high on alcohol and cocaine when

16:40

he took a prescription drug. He

16:43

says he experienced a psychotic

16:45

episode. Weeks later, he

16:47

finally reached out for help. What

16:50

made you call the doctor that night? I'll

16:52

tell you exactly what it was. And

16:55

I won't cry. I

16:58

did an event in Oklahoma City where

17:00

I had a full tilt psychotic meltdown. I mean,

17:02

I thought it was being beaten up by a

17:04

monster. I'd been up maybe two or

17:07

three nights without sleep. I was

17:09

drinking and using. I had this full tilt. I

17:11

mean, they had to cancel the show. And I

17:13

went back to LA and I drank for two

17:15

more weeks. And then a blackout, I called a

17:17

doctor. At 10 years sobriety,

17:20

I met this gentleman in Nashville.

17:22

I found out that he was also sober,

17:25

that he was in recovery. And

17:27

he pulled out a chip for 17 years. I

17:29

was 10 years sober at the time. And I saw this. And

17:31

this is what kills me. I said,

17:33

what did you do when you saw me so,

17:36

so beaten up and so near death? He said,

17:38

oh, we were terrified. What we did is we

17:40

put together a prayer circle for you. So

17:45

we put a prayer circle together for you,

17:47

a bunch of alcoholics in Oklahoma City. And

17:50

two weeks later in a blackout, I called a doctor. It's

17:54

somebody whispering to us one

17:56

more time. That's a long

17:58

way from rock bottom to recognizing. that everything

18:00

is a gift. Yeah. Yeah. And

18:02

did you have to hit bottom to figure that out?

18:06

I think, I think, you know, I'm not sure. I'm

18:09

not sure because, you know, in a lot of

18:11

ways, I didn't have a financial bottom. I mean,

18:13

you know, if you talk to my kids, all

18:15

bottoms are different. that were around me, they would

18:17

have a very different interpretation of how far to

18:19

my, close to my bottom I got. Because for

18:21

my children, who never had the father there for

18:23

them when he needed to be there, they

18:26

saw a real bottom. I never

18:28

had a financial bottom, but I had a bottom as

18:30

far as what I was able to deliver

18:32

as a father or a friend. Do

18:34

you have regret? Around

18:37

my children. I do. I regret

18:39

that I wasn't there for them. And yet, you

18:43

know, there are moments with Sarah and Nicole

18:45

where the lights go on and we connect

18:47

in a way that, that I

18:49

think neither of us have ever experienced before, which

18:52

then they are magnificently forgiving and

18:55

loving. But, you

18:57

know, I don't want to give the impression that I have evolved

18:59

out of this. I mean, two years ago,

19:02

Tracy and I had dinner with my son Cole.

19:04

And, you know, as she points out, I was

19:06

reaching for the check, asking for the check during

19:08

the appetizers. She said, stay in the

19:11

moment, sit with your son. All he wants is

19:13

a relationship with you. And, you

19:15

know, and she was right. I mean, but it's,

19:18

if you don't have one. We're reaching for the check during the

19:20

appetizers. Oh my God, yeah. You've ordered, yeah, you've just

19:22

ordered the sushi with Jack. It's like, we haven't eaten.

19:24

Yeah. So we run

19:26

sometimes, things we don't quite know how

19:28

to do. Yeah. What's the

19:30

key to living a happy

19:32

life? Ah, authenticity.

19:35

Authenticity. You're enough. I

19:37

sat down with Tracy to write this book. And,

19:39

and I felt, and she never, for

19:41

a moment, stopped being Tracy. Started

19:44

going, no, you need to do more of this. You

19:46

need to, she dared to tell me what I needed

19:48

to hear. Wow. Authenticity is

19:50

an amazing gift. Yeah.

19:53

I think, you know, because we

19:55

always talk on this show about spiritual

19:57

practice, spiritual practice, I think just trying.

20:00

to be excellent every day, honoring

20:02

those principles, whether they're the six

20:04

principles that you've outlined here, or

20:07

honoring the principles that you hold to

20:09

be true for yourself. Trying to be

20:12

a good person every day

20:15

is in itself a spiritual practice. Is

20:17

it not a spiritual course? I think that is the core of

20:20

spirituality. And I think, yeah, it's just

20:22

saying hello to someone on the street. It's

20:24

those silly little things. You remember the old things, it was

20:26

helping an old lady across the street. I mean, Paul has

20:28

a lyric, which I love, which we

20:30

deal with every act of kindness is a little bit of love we

20:32

leave behind. And it's just being

20:35

a kind, decent human being every day

20:38

in every way you can. One

20:40

of the things that Paul talks about too is

20:42

that many times when you try

20:44

to change, there are a whole circle of

20:46

people who actually liked you better

20:48

the old way. Exactly. Yeah.

20:51

And a lot of people were torn between that life

20:53

and the life that's calling for

20:55

them. You know, you develop languages with

20:57

people and you develop patterns of

21:00

behavior, which is I'm the dysfunctional one, you're

21:02

the functional one, I'm the one in control,

21:04

you're the one who's a little bit crazy,

21:06

I'm always depressed, whatever it may be. And

21:09

when you change that, all of a

21:11

sudden their role in your life is

21:13

put into question. And they start having to question their

21:15

own behavior, which a lot of people don't like to

21:17

do when it's forced on them. Did you lose

21:19

a lot of friends when you got sober? My friends were

21:22

gone because one

21:24

of the elements of addiction is isolation.

21:26

So, you know, so many friends

21:28

were gone. You know, I

21:30

was really good at, you know, I went from

21:32

Carson's couch to peeking out the Venetian blinds, looking

21:34

for the tree police at three in the morning,

21:37

because I was isolating. I didn't

21:39

know how to be around people. And

21:42

I mean, I- As a sober person. Well,

21:44

no, this is drinking and using. Really? The

21:46

thing is that the gift of my addiction is

21:48

that it forced me to go, are they going

21:50

to die? Or are you going to get help?

21:52

And when getting help was important enough for

21:55

me to let go of ego and do it, I

21:58

began to connect. And

22:00

that connection, that

22:03

brought me to life. I

22:05

think that what amazes me is that in

22:07

the midst of my drinking and using, that

22:10

there was a spiritual life there, and the

22:12

proof of it, I'm happy to say is

22:14

in the songs. That

22:17

sometimes we're a channel, sometimes things

22:19

pass through us. But

22:22

what's so interesting is all of

22:24

this music was able to come through you in

22:26

such a way that feels

22:29

like prayer. You know, Rainn

22:32

Wilson was on here and was saying,

22:34

there's no difference between art and prayer.

22:36

Music, your music in particular, feels

22:38

like an offering, feels like grace,

22:41

feels like prayer. How is that

22:43

music able to come through such

22:46

dysfunction? You know, it was

22:50

and remains an absolute gift. But

22:52

I think that again, it's, you

22:54

know, you medicate, you play around with this

22:56

crap, it gets out of control, you lose

22:58

control of your life, but somewhere, underneath

23:01

it all, is a soul, it

23:04

is a spirit. And

23:06

it has, perhaps, lifetimes

23:08

of choices that have

23:11

honed that spirit. And I

23:13

think that deep down inside, there's a part of me that

23:15

is absolutely grateful

23:18

and totally believes that this immense power,

23:20

I mean, that's the connection. I

23:23

see you ask people, what is soul? Yeah.

23:26

That's the connection to me. That's the connection to

23:28

the being. And it's our soul. That's

23:30

where I stop being alone. That's our

23:32

soul. That's where I connect

23:34

to God. That's where I connect to Holy Spirit. That's

23:37

where I can, that's where we're one, where you and

23:39

I are one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That

23:41

was always there. You

23:44

know, I just had to listen. I

23:47

had to learn to listen. So in that

23:49

way, I mean, I also say to people all the

23:51

time, nothing that's ever happened

23:53

in your life is wasted.

23:56

Yep. So

23:58

for you, look at what the... Let's

26:00

talk about your iconic song, Rainbow Connection.

26:02

You know, you've said it's a

26:04

spiritual song. It is. I wrote

26:07

it with Kenny Asher for, you

26:09

know, you know your life is on track

26:11

when you hit that alarm

26:13

clock in the morning and you realize you're going to

26:15

go to work with Kermit that day. You're going to

26:18

spend the day with Jim Hansen. An

26:20

amazing spirit, you know, and I

26:22

think that sometimes, you know, you're

26:24

around somebody of a certain spiritual

26:26

level that they raise

26:29

you, that there is an energy with

26:31

somebody like Jim Hansen who is,

26:33

you have a relationship with them and

26:36

just their essence. And what

26:39

you say, it's a song not about answers,

26:41

but about questions. You believe the questions are equally

26:44

as important as the answers? Well,

26:46

my favorite line of the song is who said

26:48

that every wish would be heard and answered, if

26:50

wished on the morning star. Somebody

26:52

thought of that. Yeah. Someone

26:54

believed it. Look what it's done so far.

26:58

The essence of my own spiritual philosophy is

27:00

probably in those words right there. Somebody thought

27:02

of that and someone believed

27:04

it. The, you know,

27:06

thoughts become things. Thoughts

27:08

become things. When did you learn that?

27:12

You know, it's a long process. I

27:14

learned a little bit this morning, you know, because

27:16

I got to tell you on the shower this morning,

27:18

this was going to be a disaster. I just wasn't,

27:20

you know, it's, you know, with me sitting

27:22

here on Super Soul Sunday. I'm talking, no,

27:25

I'm just, I'm, I'm capable of going to

27:27

that fearful place. It's the fear monkeys talking

27:29

in your brain. The rats start chewing

27:31

on the wires. That's so interesting that you would say

27:33

that. The rats start chewing on the wires and you've

27:35

got to back off and go, wait a minute, are

27:37

you nuts? I'm going to sit down with Tracy and

27:39

Oprah. Ah, back. But

27:42

it happens to all of us. But then

27:44

you have to pull yourself back. That's so interesting because I always

27:46

think you've seen this show, Super Soul Sunday. Tape

27:48

that sucker and watch it all the time. That

27:51

I would feel like you would feel like,

27:53

wow, I'm going to have a chance to say

27:55

exactly what I want to say. Exactly. How I

27:57

want to do it. to

28:00

say it. But next life I'm going

28:02

to be that evolved where I actually do that

28:04

nonstop. But the fact is that there's

28:06

an element in so many of our, you

28:08

know, that little fear-based thinking, we'll

28:10

see key moments in our life.

28:14

Why do I get nervous before I walk on

28:16

stage? Why would I ever be afraid about anything?

28:18

Yeah. Yeah. Must

28:20

be an alcoholic. Must

28:23

still be recovering. Do you

28:25

always consider yourself recovering? Or after 24

28:27

years can you say, I am

28:31

well? No, I'm ready. If I'm recovered then I have

28:34

nothing left to learn, nothing left. I mean,

28:36

that is a closed chapter in my life.

28:38

And the fact is that I will sit

28:40

and learn from the newest, youngest,

28:43

most beaten up little addict that wanders into

28:45

a room and shares his story. I

28:48

will learn something from him and I will

28:50

have a breath of

28:52

life ensuring my story

28:55

with him that I've never experienced

28:57

before. And as we lose

28:59

people who, you know, gave

29:01

so much to our culture

29:03

and to the arts like Philip

29:05

Seymour Hoffman and people who,

29:08

you know, everybody had thought

29:10

had beat it. Does it make

29:12

you feel like, wow, that could be me too? No.

29:15

I am stunned by their loss and I am stunned

29:18

at how fortunate I am. I

29:20

don't think that I feel that, you know, I

29:22

know that a couple drinks are a drink and

29:24

I could start down that path. A drink you

29:27

could. Yeah, I don't want to check. You

29:29

know, why would I trade clarity for that? I

29:31

get it. When Philip Seymour

29:33

Hoffman died, I was

29:35

devastated. But no, I,

29:38

at this point. Because he was 23 years. Exactly.

29:41

I'll be 25 in March. Yeah.

29:44

I think at this point I'm sailing towards

29:46

the light right now and I,

29:49

you know, I wouldn't trade that for

29:51

anything, you know. Do

29:53

you have a spiritual practice or the spiritual

29:55

practice just being you every day? Well,

29:58

I run every morning and that's my meditation. You

30:00

know and I and I live in gratitude. I

30:03

live in gratitude. I'm a member

30:05

of a church, you know Do

30:08

you have a spiritual practice? I

30:10

do I I don't go to a church

30:12

I'm not a member of an organized religion, but I I

30:14

wake up every day and I I'm

30:17

grateful for coffee. I think that's my first gratitude thing in

30:19

the morning um, and I and I like candles I light

30:21

a candle as soon as I wake up and I light

30:23

incense and I ring bells and I I Have

30:26

you know and they come from all over? There's

30:29

everything there. I keep my bases covered. But

30:31

yeah, I think it's living a spiritual life

30:33

And I think you know, I wonder when you

30:36

say, you know There's this difference between the semantics

30:38

of living a spiritual life and a spiritual practice

30:40

It's it's I don't know if

30:42

there aren't interchangeable really. I think it's being it.

30:44

I think it's just living it It's being honest

30:46

every time I'm honest and truthful. I'm

30:48

being spiritual. What are you most

30:51

proud that you were able? To

30:54

learn, you know often asked what's the toughest

30:56

lesson you you had to learn obviously yours

30:58

was coming through alcoholism But what

31:00

are you most proud that you learned

31:03

that you now can offer and that

31:05

you would want to offer to the people who are listening

31:08

We're not alone You're

31:10

not alone no matter where you are. No matter what

31:12

you're dealing with You

31:14

know, I love the line if you're praying for more faith,

31:16

you've got enough I

31:20

think that that's that's the essence of comfort

31:22

for me in this whole deal Is

31:25

that I found a real higher power when I

31:27

got sober and what is your definition of

31:29

that higher power or God God? Yeah,

31:32

the big amigo big amigo

31:35

the big amigo is home The

31:38

big amigo is just it's it's home.

31:40

It's it's where it's it's all

31:42

the you know I love the Dalai Lama Dalai

31:44

Lama's saying that his religion

31:47

is kindness It's the elegance of

31:49

kindness manifest in this power

31:51

that is there for all of us What

31:53

for sure did you want to

31:55

say that would leave its mark

31:58

on every person? who opened these

32:01

pages, what for sure did

32:03

you want them to walk away with? That

32:06

you could change your life at

32:08

any given moment, it's never too late. That

32:11

there's something so much bigger than you out there

32:13

that you're not aware of. And

32:16

then there's a message in there which is probably subliminal

32:18

and I don't know that it's ever even stated, but

32:22

it's in the steps and it's in the work, which

32:25

is, it's better to love than be right.

32:30

Oh, yeah. And I think it's, you

32:32

know, I think that so many people,

32:34

and we all want to be right when

32:36

all we really want is to be loved. And

32:38

I think if people can walk away

32:40

from that book in ingratitude and trust,

32:42

know that their point of view and what

32:44

they've been stuck in for years or the mindset

32:47

is so much less

32:49

important than loving and

32:51

being loved and loving yourself enough

32:53

to care about taking care

32:55

of yourself and that your dreams are really

32:57

worth pursuing and you deserve them. I just

33:00

think if you can give people that,

33:02

you can do it. You know, you can do

33:04

whatever you want to do, you just have to

33:06

do the work and believe in yourself. What a

33:08

great gift to give gratitude and trust. Okay, going to end

33:10

with this. What are you most grateful

33:12

for? My family in love. I don't know what

33:14

I would do without them. I'm

33:16

so grateful for the life I have today. I'm

33:19

so grateful we got to be here. Oh, thank you.

33:21

I'm so grateful I get to talk to you.

33:23

Oh my goodness. What a gift. What

33:26

a gift. I'm Oprah Winfrey

33:28

and you've been listening to Super

33:30

Soul Conversations, the podcast. You

33:32

can follow Super Soul on Instagram,

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33:37

yet, go to Apple Podcasts and

33:39

subscribe, rate and review

33:41

this podcast. Join me

33:44

next week for another Super Soul Conversation.

33:46

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