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more details. Simultaneously, the hardest

1:33

moments of my life are coupled

1:35

with the most beautiful moments of

1:37

my life every time. Yeah.

1:39

It actually became kind of like a joke during

1:42

the making of this album because when I

1:45

would walk into the studio and I, you know,

1:47

people would see on my face immediately if I'm

1:49

having anxiety or panic and they would be like,

1:52

we're going to write a good song today. each

2:00

and every one of you. If you enjoyed

2:02

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episodes. If you think of someone who

2:45

would love this episode, send it to

2:47

them to make their day. The number

2:50

one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty.

2:52

Jay Shetty. He was the only

2:54

Jay Shetty. Hey

2:57

everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I

3:00

am so grateful to be with you in

3:02

this very, very special place today with a

3:05

human that I'm so lucky to call a friend. And

3:08

it's kind of strange sitting opposite

3:10

him with a microphone in front of

3:12

me because this is not usually how we spend time together.

3:15

And I can honestly say that this individual is

3:18

someone you already know. He needs no introduction, but

3:20

whenever he speaks, you hear truth in

3:22

his voice. Whenever he sings,

3:25

you hear his heart through it. Whenever

3:28

he's around anyone, I've seen him light

3:30

up every room he walks into and

3:33

radiate goodness and genuineness around him.

3:35

And his new music is gonna

3:37

do that in such a powerful,

3:40

beautiful, thoughtful way. And

3:43

I can't wait for you to hear it. And

3:45

we're so lucky that we get to be in

3:47

the womb of where his work's

3:50

being created right now. I'm

3:52

sitting down with my dear friend, incredible

3:54

musician, phenomenal human, and

3:57

all around great dude, Sean

3:59

Manley. Sean, it's good to see

4:01

you man. Crazy.

4:04

Finally. Finally.

4:08

After four years of hikes.

4:11

It feels like longer than four years man. It

4:14

does feel like four years but yesterday night I went

4:17

back and traced back the first time we messaged. 2020,

4:20

yeah. So I was like, yeah, I thought it

4:23

was longer too but it's been

4:25

a lot of deep time though. Yeah, it's

4:27

been crazy. And I mean, we've been

4:29

talking about wanting to do this but

4:33

yeah, I knew the right time would just

4:35

appear and it just feels like so the

4:38

right time. And I guess

4:40

for everyone, you guys don't really know that

4:42

like the last four years, Jay and I

4:45

had this beautiful relationship where we go

4:47

on these hikes and we just kind

4:50

of catch up and yeah, man,

4:52

you've just been, you've been beyond

4:54

there for me for so long. So I love

4:56

you and I'm just, I'm so

4:58

grateful and this is so important to me and

5:00

I'm honored to be here and it's just all

5:02

the things man. Yeah, truly. Brother, thank

5:05

you for saying that the feelings mutual I

5:07

think it's really interesting when you

5:09

connect with someone and you're

5:11

being kind and saying I was there for you but I think you've equally been there

5:13

for me. Hope so. And

5:16

you've helped me see things in myself that I wouldn't

5:18

have seen if I didn't know you. And

5:21

I think watching you reflect through

5:23

the process you've been through in the last four years

5:25

and watching you be so

5:29

inward focused kind of

5:32

forced me to do more self work as well.

5:34

And so I think it's been a

5:36

beautiful mutual relationship, but let's dive straight into it. I actually

5:38

want you to share with people where

5:40

we are because this is not my studio

5:43

and we're in this beautiful place and I

5:45

think you're the best person to give us

5:47

a visual tour if you're watching and if

5:49

you're listening. Yeah, if you're listening, we're sitting

5:52

in the middle of a live room

5:54

in a studio called the Clubhouse in

5:57

upstate Rhinebeck, New York. when

6:00

you're seeing all the beautiful candles and stuff. This

6:02

is probably one of my

6:04

favorite places in the whole world. This is

6:07

the room that,

6:09

oh man, I mean, I've

6:12

made all of my albums here, all of my

6:14

music, and I've had some

6:17

of the most magical moments of

6:20

my life in this room. And

6:22

so I'm gonna be

6:25

probably a little emotional just like even sitting

6:27

in here, just cause as I sit here

6:29

and as we talk, it's just memories kind

6:31

of circling around of

6:35

just like time.

6:38

And yeah,

6:41

it's an amazing studio. Yeah,

6:44

you can feel it. I felt it when I

6:46

walked in and I can feel it right

6:48

now. There's a different energy in here. So I'm so

6:50

grateful that you allowed us to come in

6:52

and share this with the

6:54

rest of the world through this interview. And it's

6:57

really beautiful actually being in a space where

6:59

an artist creates and moves and cries

7:02

and breathes. And

7:05

I think it's rare, you don't really get access to

7:07

that. I think you go see artists in a concert

7:09

or in a public space, but you don't really get

7:11

this. And I thought where

7:13

I wanted to start this interview is kind of roll back

7:16

to your announcement about

7:18

tour. And you talk about this in

7:21

your song, Who I Am, you say, and I'm gonna be looking

7:23

at my notes a lot because I haven't

7:25

yet learned all your lyrics off my heart. And I know the

7:27

fans are gonna be really heartbroken. How

7:30

have you not done this yet? But if I'm

7:32

on my phone, I'm reading lyrics back to you.

7:34

So in Who I Am, it says, it

7:37

broke my heart when I canceled tour, had

7:40

my soul and my heart going back and forth.

7:42

And I wanted to read the message you actually put up

7:45

on Instagram at the time because I remember

7:47

it going out. We were talking about it.

7:49

We were talking the night before. You

7:52

were actually the person I texted at

7:54

like 1 a.m. that night

7:56

when I was just in complete spin

7:58

of what to do. And

8:01

I just remember feeling so much like,

8:04

I think in those situations, it

8:07

feels really hard to

8:10

ask people to give you advice or

8:13

to give you an opinion because

8:15

it's such a big deal, you

8:17

know, to do something like that. And I

8:19

remember assuming you were gonna reply something along

8:21

the lines of, you can do

8:23

it, you know, just, you know, you got it, like

8:25

we can do this, you know, we can figure out

8:27

a way. And you

8:30

were just like, in the

8:32

most loving way, I can't remember exactly something along the

8:34

lines of just like, whatever you need, take care of

8:36

yourself, you know, and I remember

8:38

when I read that, my whole body just like sunk

8:40

into the bed and I was like, oh God, like,

8:43

yeah, that was really important to me. So thank you for that.

8:46

But yeah, so sorry, go on. No, yeah,

8:48

no, no, no, I'm so glad that you

8:50

remember that. I remember you telling

8:52

me that, you know, on tour

8:54

an artist has to do something like, or

8:57

someone like yourself has to do like 150 shows minimum.

9:01

And I remember asking you, at what

9:04

point do you feel like you can't do

9:06

another show? And you

9:08

said around like 50. And

9:11

I was just like, what? I was like, so wait, you have

9:13

to do 100? And it was so funny because I went on

9:15

my world tour last year, I only did 40 shows. And

9:19

I felt it around 33. And

9:21

I was like, wow, do you want me to have to do

9:23

it? It probably has something to do with relative to when the

9:25

end is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, for 50s, I

9:27

like it. Like any race, you know. And

9:29

so anyway, you said, there were two times you

9:32

posted about it, but this one, you said, this

9:34

breaks my heart to have to say this, but

9:36

unfortunately I'm going to have to postpone the next

9:38

three weeks of shows. I've

9:41

been touring since I was 15. And

9:43

to be honest, it's always been difficult to be

9:45

on the road away from friends and family. After

9:48

a few years off the road, I felt like I was

9:50

ready to dive back in, but the

9:52

decision was premature. And unfortunately the toll

9:54

of the road and the pressure

9:56

has caught up to me and I've hit a breaking point.

9:59

After speaking. I'm speaking with my team and

10:01

health professionals. I need to take some time

10:03

to heal and take care of myself and

10:05

my mental health first and foremost. As

10:08

soon as there are more updates, I promise you, I

10:10

will let you know. Love you guys. Yeah. Walk

10:13

me through how hard that

10:15

time was for you mentally,

10:18

physically, even before having to

10:20

send that message because I think when people see

10:22

that message, they think you've just decided it. Yeah.

10:25

But really, it's something you've been holding

10:28

for months, weeks, maybe even years.

10:30

Yeah. And I think

10:33

the reality is anyone who

10:35

does anything at a

10:37

high level knows that it's hard. It's

10:39

hard. Anything you wanna do that's extraordinary

10:41

is hard. So there are gonna be

10:43

these moments where it feels really hard

10:46

and it feels like you can't do

10:48

it. And that, I think every

10:50

athlete or performer or anyone knows that there

10:52

are all these dips and these peaks and

10:54

that's just part of it. The

10:56

problem is

10:58

that for me, the

11:01

hardest part about being in a state

11:04

of, I

11:06

don't even know the right word to describe

11:08

it, but you could say depression, you could

11:10

say anxiety, you could say just general darkness

11:14

or lowness. The

11:17

hardest thing about that is not the

11:20

feeling that way. It's that the feeling

11:23

that way makes you

11:25

look at your life through that

11:27

lens and therefore all the love that's around

11:30

you and all the people who are loving

11:32

you and supporting you, you can't

11:34

even see that love anymore. And

11:37

so it's all just kind of getting

11:40

consumed by this feeling. I

11:42

mean, I've done a lot of tours and that

11:44

was, and I've been in hard

11:47

places before. And I think

11:49

the reality was that it just

11:52

became really, really clear to me that

11:56

I needed to diversify in life and

11:59

that since I was a kid, as a kid,

12:01

my entire life had been about one

12:03

thing. It had been about performing and

12:05

making music and just a constant kind

12:08

of cycle. It

12:11

was amazing, but the reality

12:13

is that, I

12:15

really do believe all your

12:17

eggs in one basket is a dangerous way. And

12:21

I was the number one

12:24

rooter of like, I have no plan V, I

12:26

don't have plan V. And

12:28

I had nowhere to go when things were

12:30

getting hard. I didn't have other aspects

12:33

of life that I felt connected to that I could

12:35

have like, leaned into to have

12:37

a little bit of like a break from

12:39

touring and come back and just find that

12:41

balance. And I knew

12:44

there was only one way of doing that. And

12:46

it was by step-by-step, just

12:48

like creating a life. And

12:50

so, yeah, I mean, canceling

12:52

that tour was by

12:55

far the hardest decision

12:58

of my life and

13:01

by far the greatest decision of my life.

13:03

And it gave

13:05

me a life, you know, it really, it

13:08

gave me time to discover so much about

13:10

myself. And

13:14

yeah, I'm smiling now because it's so far

13:16

away. But it, yeah,

13:19

it's so much for me, you know. Who

13:21

did you feel? I know later on you talk about

13:23

in the same song, this

13:25

idea of I feel

13:27

pressure from the people that I love and it hurts. But

13:30

I know I got to do it, I got

13:32

to put me first. Like who do you feel

13:35

you were letting down at the time, yourself

13:37

and others? Yeah, I think the reality is

13:39

it's not just as the artist, it's not

13:41

just you that sacrifices everything to do that.

13:43

You have a team of almost a hundred

13:46

people who are away from their families for

13:48

a year. And

13:50

they're every day working,

13:52

they're not sleeping, they're

13:55

sacrificing everything to put this show on. That

13:58

was one of the hardest pills to swallow. It

14:00

was just like, oh man. And they

14:03

are excited to, you

14:05

gotta be an insane

14:08

person to be a touring crew

14:10

or anyone on tour. You

14:12

have to truly love it. You have

14:14

to understand that this is profoundly greater

14:16

than you and what's happening is magical.

14:19

And so, and it was like

14:21

not letting people down and we've worked so hard,

14:23

it was like, oh man, people were excited. People

14:26

were proud of what they created. And

14:30

that was the hard part, yeah. Yeah, it

14:32

feels like, I remember when we would talk

14:34

about it then, there was also this weight

14:36

around it where it was like, you'd

14:39

had this growth period in your life where as you

14:41

said, you've been doing this since you were 15. And

14:44

then all of a sudden you were kind of getting

14:47

the growth opportunity to

14:49

say, I get to make my own decisions.

14:52

And I remember like just learning from you

14:54

about that dynamic of young

14:56

people who become successful and famous

14:58

and very, very early on,

15:01

it's like, you're still a kid. And then all

15:03

of a sudden you're like, oh, well, am I allowed

15:05

to make my own decisions? Am I allowed to say

15:07

I don't wanna do something? Walk me through a bit

15:09

of that reflective process because

15:11

I think it's not an age thing.

15:13

I think we all go through this arc in our life where

15:17

we go, am I gonna be the one to

15:19

make the decisions now? Am I gonna

15:21

take the responsibility? Yeah, and I think, yeah,

15:24

that's the hardest part is it

15:27

really comes down to the moment

15:29

you're prepared to take responsibility for your

15:32

life and for everything that goes wrong

15:34

and for everything that goes right. And

15:37

it's hard, you know, cause

15:41

your whole life you either you have your parents

15:43

to either rely on, like, you know, you look

15:45

at them and they go, okay, yeah, well, they

15:47

said, it's always kind of

15:49

like you can deflect that responsibility onto

15:51

someone else, whether it's my manager or

15:54

someone. And

15:56

yeah, that was just

15:58

like... this is

16:00

gonna be a big decision I make and then

16:03

there's gonna be repercussions here and I'm gonna have

16:05

to be responsible for it. And yeah,

16:09

it's kind of just like that. And

16:13

the beautiful thing is that once I

16:15

did that, it felt like now, okay,

16:18

that was the kind of big one. And

16:20

then every other little decision, it was kind

16:22

of like, well, here I am again, making

16:24

another decision. And you kind

16:26

of go like, I'm sorry to bring my

16:29

sister into this, for you,

16:31

Aliyah, but like, she's like, oh,

16:34

I don't wanna, she's like, I just not

16:36

have the responsibility. And I'm like, that's not

16:38

how it works. Once you start

16:40

taking responsibility, you just gotta keep

16:42

taking responsibility. And it's

16:44

simultaneously grueling, but also so

16:46

much more rewarding because when

16:49

it goes well, you know, it's

16:52

you who put yourself in that position. So

16:54

yeah. You said something beautiful just now.

16:56

You said it was the hardest decision

16:58

and it was the greatest decision. Have

17:00

you found those two things often go together

17:02

or would you say that's not

17:04

the case? I find

17:07

that simultaneously, the hardest moments of

17:09

my life are coupled with the

17:11

most beautiful moments of my life

17:13

every time, yeah. It

17:15

actually became kind of like a joke

17:18

during this making of this album, because when

17:21

I would walk into the studio and

17:23

people would see on my face immediately

17:25

if I'm having anxiety or panic, and

17:29

they would be like, we're gonna write a good

17:31

song today. Like every time it was like, there

17:34

was some sort of healing crisis that had to

17:36

happen. I had to like get through this pain,

17:39

this fear, this anxiety, these tears,

17:41

this anger, something. And on

17:43

the other end of that was just like

17:45

plain truth and plain truth was

17:47

just the best ingredients for a song.

17:50

So yeah, I do. How does an artist ever find

17:53

peace then? That's a great question.

17:56

I think like I would be following

17:59

through. And I do follow through even

18:01

if there's no song to write, you know, I think

18:04

we're so taught especially in so many societies

18:06

and cultures But like I feel like in

18:08

the West were so taught to just

18:11

there's a time and place for things and

18:16

If you're in an interview and tears are about to

18:19

come if you're in an interview and anger is about

18:21

to happen You can't let

18:23

that happen. And I really have noticed

18:25

that like if you can just like

18:28

Express it in an honest calm way

18:30

Most likely a more beautiful

18:32

thing is gonna come through that than what you desired,

18:34

you know I would do that if

18:36

there's no song that came out of it. That's kind of my

18:38

way of moving through life it's like I had to the gym

18:41

and I'm like if I walk into the gym today and Crying

18:44

in the gym. That's the better outcome, you

18:46

know, so You

18:49

do live like that. I do And

18:52

I haven't said it yet, but you know this

18:54

this album it's it's so fascinating

18:57

for me to see it from the moment that we're

18:59

talking about now to then its creation because I Remember

19:03

when it was you trying

19:05

to figure out your voice and figure out who

19:07

you are as an artist as a person as

19:09

a human And now when I listen to

19:11

it, it almost sounds so effortless

19:14

Yeah, and true. Yeah and authentic in

19:16

this really flowing way kind of like

19:18

this channeling Yeah experience of even listening

19:20

to it and I couldn't believe it

19:22

when I listened to it because I

19:25

was like Wow, like you did

19:27

it like that. That's how I felt like I was

19:29

like you did it and then something like it was even it far

19:32

superseded any of The

19:35

expectations I would have had in the conversations we

19:37

had of how you were thinking about it well,

19:39

yeah, and it's like, you know, you have the

19:41

idea of If

19:43

someone if I said to you, you know six months

19:45

ago I want to make the most honest album I've

19:47

ever made Then you start having ideas of

19:49

what that sounds like and what that looks like and

19:52

then at some point actually in the studio At

19:56

some point when you're done with all the

19:58

ideas of what you think you

20:00

are trying to force it to become, there's

20:03

a breaking point and you surrender to it and the

20:05

album starts to become what it's meant to be. And

20:07

you just have to like roll with that,

20:10

you know? Yeah, and that's hard

20:12

though. It's super hard. How do you trust that? How

20:14

do you trust that? Because I feel like we're living...

20:16

It's exhausting. Yeah, I think. Because

20:18

we're living at this time where

20:20

I feel like everything's perfectly engineered

20:22

and manufactured and even authenticity is

20:25

programmed and developed. And then you're trying to

20:27

say, well, no, I actually want to create

20:30

something like that, but then how

20:32

do I not engineer it? Something that I

20:34

learned on this process was

20:36

just like the foundation, like

20:38

the first brick you lay, if that brick

20:41

is a brick of like authentic

20:43

truth, if you work really hard to get to

20:45

that place and that first brick you lay is

20:48

truth, each brick after that will be much easier,

20:50

you know? And like,

20:52

I remember it felt

20:54

like as long as every word I say

20:57

comes out of my... The writers

20:59

I was working with, everyone became so attuned

21:01

to me saying something.

21:03

And if I was like saying

21:05

it and then I was kind of quencing after,

21:07

if I was saying it and then it just

21:09

didn't sound right coming out my mouth, we would

21:11

just be like, all right, that's not it. Like

21:13

it needs to have that, like you said, that

21:16

natural flow. And

21:19

that first

21:21

brick just like set a foundation for

21:24

truth to just be it. And

21:27

now we're at the point where anything that

21:30

really isn't in that space is so

21:33

obvious that we can't even put

21:35

it next to it, you know? And so it's

21:37

just really, if you start there, it's so much easier to

21:39

build, so much harder to start in

21:41

a kind of place of, I

21:44

wanna be perceived this way and

21:46

then have foundation for truth

21:49

to just be it. And

21:51

now we're at the point where anything that

21:55

really isn't in that space is so obvious

21:57

that we can't even put it next to

21:59

it. And so it's just really,

22:01

if you start there, it's so much easier

22:03

to build, so much harder to

22:05

start in a kind of place of,

22:08

I wanna be perceived this way. And

22:10

then halfway through that, be like, I want this to

22:13

feel like truth. And cause

22:15

it itself gets confused. Yeah,

22:17

I was saying this to Helena the other

22:19

day, yesterday when we were driving from

22:22

Boston last night, and

22:24

I was just saying that I'm at a point in my life

22:26

where I just want to experience.

22:30

I don't want to think about, it's

22:33

not that I wanna be irresponsible and

22:37

not think about consequences or repercussions, but

22:39

there are certain experiences that I wanna open myself

22:41

up to, regardless of how they're perceived

22:43

or how I may have perceived them in the past,

22:46

because that's the only way

22:48

I'm gonna actually get to

22:51

live. If I'm constantly curating

22:53

and perfectly managing every

22:55

part of my appearance,

22:57

perception, reputation, whatever else I

22:59

make, environment, I don't actually

23:01

get to live or breathe

23:03

or experience. And when

23:05

I hear you talk, I feel like that's something

23:07

I definitely learned from you because there's been this

23:09

part of you that's just

23:11

been so open to being all of yourself

23:14

and not having to pick. There

23:16

was one lyric where you

23:18

say in YYY, you say, I stepped off the stage

23:21

with nothing left, all the lies

23:23

are with my head, effing

23:26

with my head. What

23:29

were the lies? Oh, lights is the lyric.

23:31

Oh, sorry, my bad. You're gonna get the fans there.

23:33

Oh, my bad, there we go, I messed up. There

23:35

you go. There we go, there we go, I messed

23:37

up. No, it's the lights, yeah. I thought it was

23:39

lies, I heard lies. I mean, no lies, I mean,

23:42

maybe lies internally, but yeah, I think

23:44

the lights and metaphorically, I

23:46

think it was just more so, it

23:49

had so much to do with perception, just

23:51

this constant focus on what I look

23:54

like and

23:57

what I feel like to the world. And I

23:59

needed to, I... I didn't even

24:01

know at that point what

24:03

I felt like and what I looked

24:05

like to myself, you know? There

24:08

was a real stripping down process

24:10

that had to happen and took

24:12

me a long time, but up

24:15

until, I

24:17

would say the creation of this album, I don't

24:20

remember the last time I felt so like, just

24:24

myself, probably

24:26

the last time was when I was like nine or 10.

24:29

Honestly, yeah. What

24:32

was it about nine or 10 that felt so

24:34

true? Not

24:36

having the need

24:39

to like cover the layers of

24:42

what I was feeling, you know? I was just like

24:45

an expressing ball, you

24:47

know? Like similarly

24:49

to how, I probably like a

24:52

more emotional today similarly to

24:54

how I was when I was nine, you know? And

24:56

yeah, I guess just that not

24:59

having the words and

25:05

the stories that you've been told, you know, as

25:07

you start to grow up spinning in my head

25:09

and just expressing truth of who I am. I'm

25:12

lucky too, man. Like I know that a lot

25:14

of people, they're not surrounded

25:16

by people who are maybe super

25:19

accepting or embracing of that truth.

25:22

And I know that's hard. And

25:24

I think I have

25:26

a lot of compassion for that. And the reality is

25:28

that I wasn't around a lot

25:30

of people who were, and I think part

25:33

of starting to just like

25:35

strip back those layers is also to just

25:38

maneuver the people you're around in your life

25:40

and starting to be around people who you

25:42

can be like that with, and it just

25:44

becomes kind of a feedback loop of positive,

25:47

honest reinforcement. And then, you

25:50

know, you look around one day and you're

25:52

like, oh, there's people in this room like

25:55

really love Sean. You

25:57

know? Walk me through that discomfort.

26:00

because I think it's easy to jump from like a

26:02

canceled tour to I'm in the studio making new

26:04

music and we both know it wasn't like that.

26:07

Yeah, no, not at all. Walk me through. So

26:09

one thing in the discomfort you're saying is surrounding

26:11

yourself with people that allow

26:14

you to be yourself, allow you to be

26:18

and figure it out. What else

26:20

were like really important kind

26:22

of principles that guided you through that

26:24

no man's land, through that desert of

26:27

time? What was it for you that

26:30

kind of showed you that North Star

26:32

when things were dark? So many things

26:34

like, you know, I think the process

26:36

of like healing and moving through a

26:38

dense moment in your life is not

26:40

just sticking to one thing. It's really

26:43

using everything at your fingertips and

26:46

whether that was therapy or whether that

26:48

was like friendship or it was reading

26:50

or it was music or

26:52

what it was, you know, it

26:55

was just a mixture of all of it. And I

26:57

think the hardest thing for

27:00

me in my life has

27:05

been this kind of wanting

27:10

to always have the

27:12

perception of like strength

27:14

and altogether and kind of grounded

27:17

and still, you know. And

27:21

when I started

27:24

to like allow myself to really,

27:26

I think it's like

27:29

you got to really feel pain to

27:31

like let your ego get out

27:33

of the way when I started to really

27:35

allow myself to like lean on my

27:38

family and my friends and

27:40

also like just

27:43

reach out to people and be like, you

27:45

know, that was just such a

27:47

huge part of it, you know. I

27:49

didn't know at the time, but just

27:53

using the people around me to

27:55

support me was a huge, huge

27:57

part of it. Yeah,

28:02

and being open to not knowing

28:04

how to get through it and just

28:06

letting people maybe help me how they can,

28:08

you know, and they might have their own

28:11

way. And

28:14

yeah, the people, there's a song on the album called

28:16

Heavy and it's just so much of it is just

28:18

about letting people

28:22

who love you help you. You know, it's a hard, people

28:24

talk a lot about, it's hard to give love, it's hard

28:26

to be in that state. And then

28:28

like receiving love, like when love is in

28:30

front of you and it's trying to give

28:32

itself to you through someone, that's a hard

28:34

thing to receive. It's really hard, you know,

28:36

a lot of people, including myself, just like

28:38

want to freeze up and so

28:40

my new thing is kind of like instead of walking into

28:43

a room when I'm feeling bad,

28:46

holding it, the first thing I'll do is

28:48

just like literally like lean on someone, like

28:50

physically like, hey, can I have some love

28:52

and I need it? And that

28:54

changes it like shifts so much, you know. Sometimes

28:59

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31:03

Terms apply. Hi, I'm

31:05

Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful

31:07

Beauty. Well, I don't know

31:09

about you, but like I never liked

31:11

being told, oh wow, you look so

31:13

good for your age, like why even

31:15

bother saying that? Why don't you just

31:18

say you look great at any age,

31:20

every age? That's what Meaningful

31:22

Beauty is all about. We create products

31:24

that make you feel confident in your

31:26

skin at the age you

31:28

are now. Meaningful Beauty,

31:30

beautiful skin at every age.

31:32

Learn more at meaningfulbeauty.com. Yeah,

31:39

that's so powerful. That's so powerful.

31:41

I love that, and I feel

31:44

like, I remember in the beginning when

31:46

we'd hang out, if you weren't feeling good, there'd be a

31:48

part of you be like, I don't think I want to

31:50

hang today. And then that switch of what you're saying, where

31:52

it's like, oh no, no matter how I feel, I

31:55

need to lean in. And I love that. That's

31:57

freeing. Like, if I can

32:00

I can only hang out with you when I'm

32:02

feeling still and at peace and coming from

32:04

a very high perspective. I am

32:06

like, I got 3% of the time,

32:08

you know? And I think even

32:10

for doing something like this podcast, I mean, when we

32:12

first met each other, I used to be like, oh,

32:15

I gotta get to this degree of, you

32:17

know, calm and

32:19

understanding of life. And the reality

32:21

is, I don't have a deeper

32:23

understanding of life. I just have a deeper

32:26

acceptance of self. And that

32:28

allows me to sit here and

32:30

be like, hey, like here it is,

32:32

this is what we got, you know? And

32:35

that has changed everything to me. It frees

32:37

you from so much,

32:39

you know? You can kind of just be like, hey, that's

32:41

actually a huge part of it. I used to, before

32:44

I would get out of a car and go into

32:46

a social situation, or before I would, I just would

32:48

say like, I'm moving

32:50

as fast as I can. I cannot be

32:53

healing any quicker than this. I'm like, this

32:55

is it, I'm here. So let's just, let's

32:57

be this, you know? Yeah,

32:59

and he trips us up. I feel like we just, yeah,

33:02

we're trying to be something

33:05

we're not, or trying to be something we're not

33:07

feeling. We're trying to feel

33:09

something we don't genuinely feel in the moment, whether

33:11

it's us trying to be more confident, trying to

33:13

be more calm, trying to be more, whatever else

33:15

it may be, fill in the blank. And

33:18

it lets us down and I wonder.

33:21

Letting yourself down too, you know? There's a

33:23

part of you that you're just like telling

33:25

yourself, you're telling that part of

33:27

yourself, you're not good

33:29

enough to be around these people, or to be

33:31

in front of this camera, you know? What was

33:34

the hardest question you had to

33:36

ask yourself during this whole period? Like, what was

33:38

the question that you asked yourself the most often

33:41

that you sought the answer for? Was

33:43

just like general direction.

33:48

I remember so many times I was

33:50

just like driving my car aimlessly,

33:53

and I

33:55

would just be like, literally, I think

33:57

the verbatim words I said out of my mouth were like.

34:00

you're exactly where you're supposed to be. Like you're exactly

34:02

where you're meant to be. Like this is, I know

34:05

it might not look like what you thought it was supposed to

34:08

look like. It might not feel like what you thought, but like

34:10

something about this is it.

34:14

And there was just a lot

34:16

of beautiful things that happened in that time. Like I moved to

34:18

LA and I didn't really have a lot of people around

34:21

at that time. And I remember I went to this

34:23

coffee shop every morning and I got this,

34:25

I got a coffee. And as I

34:28

was like sitting there telling myself this, I

34:30

saw this one guy, his name is Josh,

34:32

he's a great human. And it's reading this

34:34

book, I think it's called When

34:36

Things Fall Apart. He basically read, he was reading that book

34:38

for two years. It was sitting on the

34:41

coffee shop. And I went up to him and said, what's

34:43

this book? He introduced me

34:45

to another friend and another friend. And by

34:47

the time, after I knew it, it was

34:49

like every day, there's three or four of

34:51

us would sit around having coffee. And it

34:53

was like just little group therapy sessions. And

34:55

it just became the most, the best thing

34:57

in the world to me. It

35:00

was like 9 a.m. we're gonna go talk it out. And

35:03

it was exactly where I

35:05

was supposed to be at that time. And

35:07

it was so weird and awkward and uncomfortable,

35:09

but man, it really, yeah, really, that little

35:11

thing changed my life. It was funny, because

35:13

I'd always, people would always tell me, I

35:15

just saw Sean hanging out at a coffee shop.

35:17

I'd sit there for hours. He

35:20

started calling me the mayor of the coffee shop.

35:23

And it started to become like this thing where everyone

35:26

would like watch it and be like, what's going

35:28

on here? And

35:30

I feel like you really took shelter in building

35:32

your men's circle and your men's group and having

35:34

that ability to have a group

35:36

of men around you that you could be honest

35:38

with and open with. What was unique about that?

35:40

Why was that such an interesting thing

35:42

to build? Because I know you'd always talk to me

35:45

about that as well, this group that you were nourishing

35:47

in coffee. Yeah, and I had a couple, I had

35:49

this kind of coffee men's group and

35:52

I had this other beautiful men's

35:54

group simultaneously happening. And I think,

35:58

you know, just having like... Like men

36:00

from all ages, from all parts of the

36:02

world who do all different things, like really

36:05

just show up and strip

36:08

it all back and just be

36:13

brave in front of you. I

36:15

remember like someone, something,

36:18

someone, something, I don't know, told me

36:20

like when someone is sharing something hard

36:22

with you, like nine

36:24

times out of 10, you don't have to say

36:26

anything back because the

36:29

most healing part about

36:31

that experience is just to be witnessed in

36:33

your pain. And I

36:35

think it's just that, it's like to

36:38

be witnessed in your pain and for the person in front

36:40

of you not to be like, I

36:42

don't want this. It's just for them to, you

36:45

know, when you open your eyes and the pain is over and

36:47

you look up and they're still there like, hey

36:49

man, still here, you

36:51

know, that's beyond, you

36:53

know, so in simple ways.

36:55

Like that's, that's been a huge part of it. Yeah.

36:58

And I like that you were playing that role while

37:00

you were receiving that. Yeah. I

37:02

think there's something really interesting about that.

37:05

Well, it's empowering. You're simultaneously being vulnerable

37:07

and then also listening to

37:09

other people go through their stories and

37:11

you're empowered to be strong and hold

37:13

for them. And it's just a beautiful

37:15

process, you know? Because I think

37:18

a lot of us feel like when I get

37:20

there, I'll be strong enough. Then I'll be strong

37:22

enough to hold space for others. And it's almost

37:24

like this simultaneous mutual holding is

37:26

what we all need. And you're actually only going to

37:28

be better at holding others if you allow yourself to

37:31

be held. Yeah. And

37:33

if you practice holding others even when you have nothing

37:35

to hold them with. Exactly. And that

37:37

balance is what creates that

37:39

structure, that foundation that you're resting on. Yeah, the

37:42

roots. Yeah. You

37:44

were talking about this, you're talking about heavy. And

37:47

in the song you say it's been so heavy,

37:49

it's been so long running from everything and nothing

37:51

at all. I was thinking about that

37:53

a lot. So often we

37:56

think things are so heavy and there's so much going on. And then at

37:58

the same time you're like, but it's just so heavy. it's not there.

38:01

Look me through that dilemma.

38:03

This is the constant dilemma.

38:05

It's like in

38:08

reality, there is a lot

38:10

going on. And then also in reality,

38:12

it's okay oftentimes too. It's

38:16

that internal perspective that you're going

38:18

through. And I felt like,

38:23

yeah, just running when

38:25

you have the money

38:27

and the ability to be on the

38:30

constant move and run, I just

38:33

ran. And I was just never still.

38:36

And it was like, I

38:40

couldn't figure out how to get

38:42

away from the feeling that was

38:45

feeling so bad. And at

38:48

some point I was just like, okay. A

38:51

friend of mine was like, hey man, wherever you go, there you are. And

38:54

at that point I was just like, okay, I gotta

38:56

let it kind of hit me. And

39:00

yeah, that was just a big part of it. It's

39:03

just, like I said, the realization that like, when

39:05

you kind of move all of the stuff

39:07

out of the way, it just kind of, it

39:10

just drops into the truth. It's

39:13

really hard to get to that place when all of the noise

39:15

gets out of the way. It's very hard to get to that

39:17

state, but sometimes when you do,

39:20

it allows you to

39:22

look around and be like, okay, actually it's okay.

39:25

Were you running away from fame? Was

39:28

it the, what was it? What did you

39:30

feel you were running away from? Did you,

39:32

was there a point where you were like,

39:34

I don't want to be famous? Like I

39:36

don't want to have the platform? Absolutely. And

39:38

I think just like more

39:41

of like what I felt like the

39:43

fame was doing to my mind. And

39:45

I was letting it do

39:47

to my mind and it all was based

39:49

around perception. And

39:53

just all I wanted to feel was comfortable

39:56

in my own body, you know, and like

39:58

not crawling in my skin. from

40:01

like every word that would come

40:03

out of my mouth to the way I would sit in a

40:05

chair. Everything,

40:08

you know, and I think it

40:11

just takes time because the reality is that

40:13

if you spend your life around

40:15

cameras and around social media and around

40:17

people who are constantly talking about the

40:19

way you look, the way you sound,

40:22

the way you act in

40:24

a way that has more to do with

40:26

a performance and perception, then that is what

40:28

you're going to be focused on. And

40:30

you really, if you're stuck in that spinning,

40:33

you need to put yourself around people who

40:35

are like doing the opposite

40:37

of that, who are like not worried about

40:39

how you're acting, not worried about what you're

40:41

saying, not worried about how you're sitting and

40:44

just existing, you know.

40:47

And I had to just

40:50

reconnect with that. And that's why

40:52

I named the album Shawn too.

40:55

I just felt like, yeah,

40:58

just that process of stripping just took

41:00

so long. And a lot of it

41:02

is just like, I think a lot

41:04

of it is this

41:07

idea of who I wanted to be in

41:09

this world, you know, this like, this

41:13

image of perfection. And I just

41:16

like, even right now, I'm just like, oh

41:18

man, like, thank God for everything because I'm

41:20

sitting here and I really

41:23

am not having tons of intrusive thoughts about

41:25

like, are you saying the right thing? Are

41:27

you doing the right thing? It just

41:30

is, you know, and I'm

41:32

just grateful for that. It's a nice feeling. I

41:35

just got to like check on that for a

41:37

second. I was glad you're feeling

41:39

that way. That's what I say when I was doing the

41:41

intro. I mean, I felt that way because we always talk

41:43

about these things anyway. It's even strange having all this stuff.

41:45

And it was funny because I was noticing something that was

41:48

happening in our conversation. I'd be

41:50

halfway through a tour and you'd lead on it. You wouldn't even let

41:52

me ask the question. No.

41:54

And I was like, but that's what

41:56

we do. Like we would never have

41:58

perfect causes and causes. And I was liking that.

42:02

I was appreciating that. I was noticing it

42:04

going, this is really nice. I'm not even

42:06

finishing my thought. And Sean already knows what

42:08

I'm about to say. And I was like,

42:10

I'm glad that we're doing that. And that

42:12

when we started this, I was like, yeah,

42:15

this doesn't need to be a performance. Because it's real. That

42:19

doesn't need to be that. So keep doing it, is what

42:21

I'm saying. I will. And I'm happy

42:23

that you're feeling there's no intrusive thoughts. I mean, I

42:26

think that constant filtering that we

42:29

always live in is exhausting. It's exhausting, man.

42:31

And I remember you told me about some

42:33

of the pressures back then that came

42:36

from different sources of like, oh,

42:38

if you want to be the biggest artist, then you have

42:40

to do this. So if you don't do this now, then

42:42

you won't be as big as so-and-so. Whatever. And

42:45

I was thinking about that. And when I met

42:47

you, you were whatever, like 22 years old or

42:49

something. And it's like, gosh,

42:51

hearing that as a 22-year-old, and then

42:53

you hear about TikTokers who

42:55

are taking off, hearing about 18 years old or 16

42:58

years old. And you probably heard it

43:00

when you started at 15. Like, that

43:03

can really push someone

43:05

into only caring about those

43:07

things. Yeah, of course. What did that stripping

43:09

away look like? We

43:12

always talk about this, like, you look great.

43:14

You're dressing well. You know, the hair looks good. Like,

43:16

how have you got to a point where like you

43:18

can care, but then still be the test?

43:20

Well, I think that's part of it. Actually, honestly, I

43:22

can. My tendency is to be very extreme. And a

43:24

lot of what I work on in therapy is just

43:26

finding this middle ground, just to not be in these

43:29

black and white binaries, you know? And

43:32

I oftentimes, like, I went from, like,

43:35

you know, wanting to look like the image

43:37

of perfection for complete, like,

43:40

paradox to exist in your life. And like,

43:42

two things to exist, like, the

43:44

number one thing I say in therapy is, yeah,

43:47

I know I'm feeling this, and I'm also feeling

43:49

this at the same time, and that's

43:51

okay. And that's

43:53

just like, it's

43:56

just creating more space all the time, you

43:58

know? You

44:00

have this song, Heart of God. This was something that

44:02

stood out to me. You

44:05

say, I'm sorry that I wasn't there

44:07

to hug your mama at the funeral. Yeah. I didn't

44:09

cry. I didn't even feel the pain. Then it hit

44:11

me all at once when we talked about it yesterday.

44:13

Yeah. Walk me through

44:15

who that was and what

44:18

happened there. When

44:22

I was young, when I was like

44:25

12, 13, I had a friend. His

44:27

name was Deome. My

44:31

friend Brian, you know Brian. Him

44:33

and I and Deome were just great

44:35

friends. We spent a lot of time

44:37

together. He was

44:40

awesome, dude. He was a lot like me. He was a very

44:42

sensitive dude. I really, really

44:45

connected with him. When

44:48

I was 15, obviously he got signed and started making

44:50

music. He

44:53

went off and started touring. Then Deome and

44:55

I just started

44:58

to disconnect. I

45:02

don't know exactly how old I was, but I think I was

45:04

about, I was probably 15, 16, 17. Brian would

45:08

call me and say, hey,

45:12

he would say, Deome's gotten into

45:14

drugs and stuff. Just

45:18

thinking about his mom. His mom's name is

45:20

Gail. Hoping that she sees

45:26

the beauty in the story of talking about him and

45:28

hope it's okay. When

45:31

I was like 18, around 18, Brian called

45:33

me one day and he said, hey man, Deome, he

45:36

passed away in his sleep last night. He

45:43

overdosed. I remember

45:46

when I heard it, Brian was on the phone crying

45:48

and I was just somewhere on

45:50

tour. I just

45:56

felt numb. I didn't really feel anything.

46:00

and just like hung

46:03

up and I just

46:05

kind of went on with everything and time just went

46:07

on. Sitting

46:11

in the studio about

46:14

three months ago and I keep hearing this

46:16

kind of title,

46:19

it's Heart of Gold and I ask myself, what

46:22

is this song about? What is this song about?

46:26

And Scott, who I

46:28

make a lot of music with, he looks over at me and

46:30

he goes, didn't you have a friend who

46:32

passed away from an overdose? And second he

46:34

said that Brian

46:36

was in the room and Brian goes, talk about

46:39

Deomi? And

46:43

yeah, the second he said Deomi's

46:45

name, it just like hit me,

46:47

like years of like not processing

46:49

it just like all hit me and

46:51

we sat there and sobbed. And

46:57

yeah, the song man, it was a hard song to write

46:59

and it just felt like a letter. It felt like a

47:01

letter to my friend that I never got to, the

47:04

things I never got to say to him. And

47:07

I imagine that like when

47:10

you die of an overdose, especially

47:13

as someone as sweet and kind and loving

47:15

as him, like you kind

47:17

of wake up wherever you wake up and

47:19

then potentially is this moment of like what

47:22

happened. Not

47:25

that he needs it, but it just felt like a

47:27

good opportunity to just be like, Hey man, we love

47:29

you and you had a heart of

47:31

gold and we're

47:34

down here thinking about you. And

47:36

yeah, it's one

47:39

of my favorite songs to play man.

47:41

It just is, it's just

47:43

this beautiful golden light and he is

47:45

just like this super swaggy dude and

47:47

it just like, it holds his energy.

47:50

And it's just like every time we

47:52

play it, I just imagine this huge

47:55

golden light beaming up from the place

47:57

we're in, wherever he is just reaching

47:59

him. And yeah, I

48:03

love that song. You want to play a little? I

48:07

could play it for you on

48:09

the song, on the phone after. But

48:11

yeah, man. No, I love that song

48:13

as well. I was intrigued because that

48:15

wasn't something I was aware of. Yeah.

48:17

It's funny, man, like how these

48:20

things are when you're open to the truth

48:24

and what wants to come out of you and what wants

48:26

to be made. Yeah,

48:29

it's unexpected

48:32

and it was extremely healing. It's still very

48:34

healing to just like sing that song out

48:36

to him every time I play it now.

48:39

Have you played it for his family? I haven't

48:41

actually. I have to go back to Pickering

48:43

and play it for his mom. Yeah. Yeah.

48:47

How do you think she'll react? Yeah. I

48:50

don't know. I think she'll love it. She's

48:52

an amazing human being. I always had an

48:54

amazing connection with her. And

48:57

so I could see her just like she's

48:59

just a badass, just totally rocking to it

49:01

and loving it. And yeah,

49:04

special family, special human. Yeah.

49:07

It's nice to immortalize it in a song and immortalize

49:10

him. Yeah, it is. It is

49:14

really, really nice. Never wrote about death in

49:16

that way before. So yeah. Was it

49:18

a process of forgiving

49:20

yourself and not having fun? Yeah. Yeah. What

49:23

can we explain? That was a lot of

49:25

it. A lot of it was the guilt

49:27

for not reaching out or the guilt for

49:29

not being there for him or even

49:32

more so just the guilt for not being

49:35

at his funeral and seeing his mom and

49:37

all this stuff. And music

49:39

has this funny way of healing

49:43

in a way that other things

49:45

can't, you know. So yeah. Can't

49:48

wait to play for his mom, honestly. I

49:50

can't wait. Yeah. I can't wait for you to tell me. Yeah, I

49:52

will. I can imagine it just being like this.

49:54

Yeah. Really special moment. And I think,

49:57

you know, it's so human that...

50:02

There are so many things we go

50:05

through that we're

50:07

not ready to process something yet. And

50:10

then we feel guilty that we weren't ready

50:12

when we almost feel we

50:14

needed to be. But

50:16

then you realise that actually when you were

50:18

ready to process it, something more beautiful came

50:20

from it for everyone. I

50:23

think I spoke to you about it, but one of

50:25

my monk friends passed away from cancer. My closest friend

50:27

during my time in the monastery passed

50:29

away a couple of years back. He

50:32

was maybe a year older than me, had

50:34

colon cancer. And I

50:36

couldn't go back to see him because it

50:38

was the pandemic when it happened. And

50:45

I couldn't fly back. I couldn't be by his side. I

50:47

couldn't be there with him. And in

50:49

the last few weeks

50:51

to months of his experience of it, he

50:53

wasn't even in a place to do phone

50:55

calls. And

50:57

I spoke to him three days before he passed away on

51:00

the phone. And he was crouched over

51:02

because he was in so much pain physically. And

51:04

so I couldn't even look at

51:06

him. And I always carried

51:08

that as I wasn't there by his side. I

51:10

should have been. I could have been. And it's

51:12

been something that when I was listening to it

51:14

and I heard that, that's what I was thinking

51:16

about. It's strange because

51:18

you kind of bury it until you're

51:20

ready to look at it. And

51:23

sometimes you don't even know if you're ready to look at it yet, what

51:26

part of it. I

51:28

agree with you. I think music's the only thing

51:31

that can get into that complexity of it.

51:33

Yeah, grieving is just a complex thing.

51:36

Probably lasts a lifetime. It's

51:39

beautiful that it came to you in that moment and that you

51:41

were able to... Yeah. I'm glad you

51:43

related to it, man. Yeah, no. I mean,

51:45

I relate to it in so many ways. Even grieving,

51:47

I think grief also we talk about,

51:49

obviously this is talking about the loss of

51:51

a friend and mine too. But I

51:53

think grieving is also like, I

51:56

was at my sister's wedding last year and

51:58

my sister's one of my... my favorite people

52:00

on the planet, my best friend. She

52:03

knows everything about me. She's four and a half years younger

52:05

than me. We have similar

52:07

sister vibes, same with mine. She's

52:09

just like, I love her to bits, and

52:11

she's like my little brother, actually. That's

52:14

how, unfortunately, she's been treated by me. But

52:17

I was at our wedding last year, and I

52:19

left the UK, I left London eight years ago

52:21

now. And we've

52:24

kept in touch, and we've kept our relationship. We're as

52:26

tight as ever, so it hasn't been affected, it was

52:29

really funny because I was at her wedding, and

52:32

I was just sobbing the whole

52:34

time. And I have to show you,

52:36

can I show it to you? I wasn't even planning on doing

52:38

this, but now that I remember, I think I just showed it

52:40

to my team the other day, because my sister was just with

52:42

me, and she- Oh,

52:45

I don't even want it. I don't even have it

52:47

on hand. Photos of me crying at my sister's wedding.

52:49

I have to show you. It

52:51

was just, wait, sorry, I wasn't prepared for this. That's

52:53

why it's genuinely the moment I'm trying to make sure

52:56

that I have it. Oh,

53:02

man, it's

53:05

so good. And then zoom out to

53:07

see Ravi's reaction. Oh, man, it's really

53:09

good. I've never seen your face look

53:11

like that. Oh,

53:16

man, that is so good. That

53:18

is an unreal photo. There's so

53:21

much happening on your face. There's

53:23

a whole story on your face. Did you

53:26

zoom out? Yeah, I saw Ravi's. Ravi's

53:28

taking a picture. Smiling gorgeous. Ravi's taking a

53:30

picture. And then I made her cry,

53:32

and that was her. Oh, yeah,

53:34

good. But what

53:36

I'm getting to is this idea of like, I

53:39

was at my sister's wedding thinking

53:42

it was going to be completely normal, and

53:45

it wasn't, because I started to

53:47

realize that when I left London,

53:49

I had to switch off. Even

53:52

though I was connected with her, and I loved her

53:54

and we talked all the time, there was a part

53:56

of my emotional connection to my family that I had

53:58

to turn off because... If

54:00

I thought about it every day in New York and

54:02

then LA. Yeah, you couldn't do it. I couldn't do

54:04

it because I didn't have any

54:06

family and friends in New York and LA and I didn't

54:08

know how my life was going to go and I didn't

54:10

know what I was going to do. I

54:13

was like, if I stay too connected emotionally, I'm going

54:15

to have to run back. And then I remember I

54:17

went back to my house, my parents' home, when me

54:19

and my sister grew up and it was

54:21

the first time she wasn't there. And last

54:24

Christmas, I felt like I was... Alone.

54:27

Fully alone. And it was

54:29

so strange because I was like, what

54:31

is going on? And it was all these feelings

54:33

I denied or put away or hidden from myself

54:36

because it was too uncomfortable to go there. And

54:38

they all just came up with my sister leaving

54:40

and getting married and all the rest of it.

54:42

And so I think grieving also is also

54:45

the loss of a former life, the loss

54:48

of a former self, the loss of... There's

54:50

so much to it that I

54:52

think you bring up in that song that at least

54:54

it got me thinking about. Yeah, yeah. Grief

54:57

is a really, really complex, interesting thing.

55:00

But yeah, that's beautiful, man. I

55:02

love that photo so much. I'll send

55:04

it to you afterwards. That's

55:07

so good. I wanted to talk

55:09

to you a bit about... And I

55:11

hope you don't mind, we're doing an album tour because... Whatever

55:14

you want. To me, I always get happy

55:16

when I can... You know, your

55:18

music is so healing for me. And

55:21

I know it's going to be so

55:23

healing for people. Actually, talk to me about that because you had 15

55:26

fans in here last night. And that was

55:28

the first time you played this album to

55:30

them. I wasn't here for that. So I

55:32

want to hear about what was that like.

55:35

It was really special. It was just like

55:37

so... It was my

55:39

first time really telling the story of all the

55:41

songs, you know? And it was

55:45

just a sobbing fest. Everyone was sobbing

55:47

and everyone was crying. And it's

55:50

just another reminder that greatness

55:53

is not one person.

55:55

It really is just so

55:57

many things happening and aligning.

56:00

to make something special, you know? It's like the

56:04

end of the night, like when I look around,

56:06

I'm like, all the candles are lit and like

56:08

all the people in the room, the fans in

56:10

there, like the friends who've come, like our friends

56:12

who are amazing chefs who've come and made this

56:15

amazing meal for them. And like, there's flowers around,

56:17

like, you know, I didn't do

56:19

any of this. And my band, like, there

56:22

are all these humans who are

56:24

so amazing who come together to

56:27

make something special happen. And

56:30

when you like make room

56:33

for that and give space for

56:35

that collective effort to be felt,

56:38

oh, it was just like, and on

56:40

top of that, just like the album itself, we

56:42

put so much effort into just the stories and

56:44

the truth of it that I

56:47

felt like my job was so easy. All

56:50

I had to do was represent

56:52

the song. All I had to do was speak the

56:54

truth of what we wrote about and

56:56

perform it that way and move on. There

57:00

was the greatest show ever was already wrote before

57:02

we started and I just had to step into

57:04

it. And I think that's

57:06

such a representation also just

57:09

of like, for me, like as a

57:11

performer, like I have had a really

57:14

hard time, you know, when A,

57:16

I am carrying

57:19

the weight of everything on my shoulders, when

57:21

I'm the one, when I'm telling myself this

57:24

being fantastic, all relies, all comes

57:27

down to me. If I'm not fantastic, it

57:29

all doesn't matter, which is

57:31

not true at all. And the more

57:33

I take that weight off of me, the more fantastic

57:35

it becomes. And B, when

57:38

the art I've chosen to create comes

57:41

from such a truthful place, the show

57:43

you play is so

57:45

much easier. It just

57:47

like, it supports you. It feels like you just

57:50

have the lift of the

57:52

truth, you know, and you

57:54

can't rush that stuff at the end of the

57:56

day. You cannot rush art

57:58

and music and. you have to really

58:00

allow it in the fans last night. They were like,

58:03

hey, you know, at the end of the show, they

58:05

were like, hey, like, if this is the type of music you come back

58:07

with, take as much time as you need.

58:11

And so it was so sweet. That's beautiful.

58:13

Yeah, it was so special for me. Sometimes

58:18

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58:20

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58:22

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58:24

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58:28

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58:30

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58:32

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58:34

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58:36

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58:38

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1:00:31

I feel like when I'm listening to this album, it feels

1:00:33

like I'm listening

1:00:35

to a friend talk to me about what they've

1:00:37

been going through. Yeah. They were catching up on

1:00:39

a call. Good. And I'm listening to a friend

1:00:41

just hearing about what's going

1:00:43

on in their life and how they're thinking

1:00:45

about it. Good. That's that's perfect then. That's

1:00:47

how and I feel like that's it's

1:00:51

so beautiful and it's obviously so hard to

1:00:53

do because you're doing it at,

1:00:55

you know, everyone's feeling that

1:00:57

way. And so that's not easy. Yeah.

1:01:00

And continuing our tour of the album,

1:01:02

you talk about. You

1:01:04

know, love and relationships, which is a romantic relationship,

1:01:07

which is such a big part of your own

1:01:10

journey. And we've talked about this so much.

1:01:12

Yeah, it's such a it's

1:01:14

such a sensitive part of our hearts. Like such

1:01:16

a like it's almost like society's

1:01:19

also made it. More.

1:01:21

Yeah. More sensitive, like on such a pedestal. Yeah.

1:01:23

As I often talk about recently. Yeah. I was

1:01:25

just saying this to someone the other day who's

1:01:27

going through something and I was saying that. They've

1:01:32

always overvalued and overweighted romantic love.

1:01:34

Instead of just general love. Instead

1:01:36

of the general love. And,

1:01:40

you know, in your song In

1:01:43

Between, you say,

1:01:45

if I'm not all in, then I'm

1:01:48

all out. And it's never going

1:01:50

to happen if it doesn't happen right now. If

1:01:53

it doesn't end with a ring, is it just sex?

1:01:56

If it isn't black and white, then it's on to the next.

1:01:59

I mean. I can't think of how many

1:02:01

people can relate to that experience.

1:02:04

Yeah. And how many people, when

1:02:06

they hear that, are going to think, that's

1:02:09

my life, that's me. Walk

1:02:11

me through what you're

1:02:14

experiencing, what you're going through in your mind. Yeah,

1:02:17

for me, I'm definitely one of

1:02:19

those people who has over put

1:02:22

way too much weight on the romantic part

1:02:24

of love. Doing that has done

1:02:27

many things. It suffocated love. It

1:02:30

has closed the

1:02:32

door to any other kind of love that

1:02:34

I could be receiving. I guess

1:02:36

there comes a point where, there came a point over the last

1:02:38

couple of years where I was just like, I

1:02:41

realize life is hard. Like,

1:02:43

this thing is too long and too hard

1:02:46

to like, not just be open to the

1:02:48

love that's in front of you, asking

1:02:50

to be received right now, you

1:02:53

know. And

1:02:56

that was kind of what I was writing about there is,

1:02:59

isn't it enough just to have

1:03:01

someone share

1:03:03

a moment with you of love? And it's

1:03:06

hard at first because it's like, it's really vulnerable to

1:03:08

like, allow that because all the things come in as

1:03:10

like, is this romantic? Is this this? And

1:03:13

is this going to be forever? What

1:03:15

does this mean? You know, is this

1:03:17

weird because you're with someone and we're

1:03:19

having a beautiful connection. What does

1:03:21

that mean? Is this bad? Is this wrong? And

1:03:24

all of that can exist at

1:03:27

the same time and

1:03:29

it's okay. And when

1:03:31

you start making more space for

1:03:33

all that complexity to exist, like

1:03:35

you start to realize, wow, there's

1:03:38

a lot of opportunity for me to feel love every day.

1:03:41

And I have noticed

1:03:43

that my fixation on romantic

1:03:45

love has dwindled and

1:03:47

I've just been so much more, you

1:03:50

know, I

1:03:52

guess generally feeling that empty space of

1:03:55

love fill up. And that's

1:03:57

just because I think I'm more willing to receive

1:03:59

it from. more places, you

1:04:01

know? And it's

1:04:04

tough too, because we

1:04:06

have been watching Disney since we were kids, and

1:04:08

so we're like, where is my forever? You know,

1:04:10

and even in the song, like, you know, I

1:04:13

have another song in there where I'm like, you're

1:04:15

the one and I live for this moment. It's like, that

1:04:18

like, tickles a part of

1:04:20

us. And we like love to hear

1:04:22

that. And, you know, to the end of life, I'll

1:04:25

be hopeless romantic like that. But like,

1:04:28

yeah, but part of me also has to just

1:04:30

know that, yeah, love can just,

1:04:32

it can really be there. You can experience

1:04:34

it. And if you just wait your whole

1:04:36

life for one person to give it to

1:04:39

you, you might

1:04:41

be let down. And also,

1:04:43

you might just, that person might just be

1:04:46

so, might be so impossible for them to

1:04:48

feel that for you, you know? So, yeah,

1:04:51

I'm open to love. That's

1:04:53

what I'm saying. What's it been

1:04:55

like for you having your

1:04:58

romantic life be so public, and

1:05:00

then when you break up, it's public.

1:05:02

And then if there's a potential reconnection,

1:05:04

it's public. Yeah. And I feel like

1:05:07

that is kind of, I mean,

1:05:10

for anyone I've ever interviewed, for anyone I've

1:05:12

ever known, that seems to be one of

1:05:15

the hardest things, because it's brutal for

1:05:17

both people, fans, audiences, people in

1:05:20

people's private life. Like, walk me

1:05:22

through what that's been like, and

1:05:25

maybe where certain songs felt

1:05:27

connected to that experience. And

1:05:29

I've just been so much more, you

1:05:32

know, I

1:05:34

guess generally feeling that empty space of

1:05:37

love fill up. And that's just because

1:05:39

I think I'm more willing to receive

1:05:41

it from more places, you know? And

1:05:46

it's tough too, because we

1:05:48

have been watching Disney since we were kids. And

1:05:50

so we're like, where is my forever, you know?

1:05:53

And even in the song, like, you know, I

1:05:55

have another song in there where I'm like, you're

1:05:58

the one, and I live for this moment. It's like, I know. And

1:06:00

that like tickles a part

1:06:02

of us. And we like love to

1:06:04

hear that. And you know, to the end of life, I'll

1:06:07

be a hopeless romantic like that. But

1:06:09

like, yeah, but part of me

1:06:11

also has to just know that, yeah,

1:06:14

love can just, it can really be there.

1:06:16

You can experience it. And if you just

1:06:18

wait your whole life for one person to

1:06:20

give it to you, you

1:06:23

might be let down. And also you might

1:06:26

just, that person might just be so, might

1:06:28

be so impossible for them to feel that

1:06:30

for you. So yeah,

1:06:33

I'm open to love. That's what I'm

1:06:35

saying. What's

1:06:37

it been like for you having your

1:06:40

romantic life be so public and

1:06:42

then when you break up, it's public.

1:06:45

And then if there's a potential reconnection,

1:06:47

it's public. And I feel like that

1:06:50

is kind of, I

1:06:52

mean, for anyone I've ever interviewed, for anyone

1:06:54

I've ever known, that seems to be one

1:06:57

of the hardest things because it's brutal for

1:07:00

both people, fans, audiences, people

1:07:03

in people's private life. Like walk me

1:07:05

through what that's been like and maybe

1:07:07

where certain songs felt connected to that

1:07:10

experience. Brutal. I

1:07:15

mean, honestly, I think

1:07:18

Camila and I have just done the

1:07:21

best job at preserving our

1:07:24

private little fire of love for

1:07:27

each other because no matter

1:07:29

how strong mentally you are

1:07:32

when there are millions of people commenting

1:07:34

on it, it's so hard not

1:07:36

to be affected by it and to be swayed

1:07:38

by it and to be inspired by it and

1:07:40

to desire because people desire it or

1:07:43

to hate it because people hate it and it's

1:07:45

just human. And I feel

1:07:48

like her and I have just

1:07:50

worked extremely hard to just protect

1:07:52

each other and protect that

1:07:54

love. And I've

1:07:56

learned a lot about that. And

1:07:58

it's, It's part

1:08:01

of it, it's definitely part of it,

1:08:03

and there's no getting away from that. But

1:08:05

if I'm being completely

1:08:07

honest, I don't really go on social media

1:08:09

anymore. So

1:08:11

I don't really see

1:08:14

or care what people say about

1:08:17

my love life or my relationships because

1:08:20

it's just, it's honestly

1:08:22

too detrimental to the actual relationship

1:08:24

itself that I've become

1:08:26

pretty strict on that part of

1:08:28

it. But it is,

1:08:30

it's crazy, man. We're not

1:08:33

in a movie, this is not a movie.

1:08:35

Celebrities are, sometimes maybe they think they are

1:08:37

and sometimes they literally are, but it is

1:08:40

in a movie, this is real life, this

1:08:42

is real love and love is confusing and

1:08:44

hard and goes through dips and goes

1:08:48

through pauses, goes through breaks, goes

1:08:50

through so much. And so, yeah,

1:08:54

I really feel for everyone who goes

1:08:56

through that, you know? I

1:08:58

just feel like as a celebrity,

1:09:00

I just wanna just

1:09:03

come at it and be really truthful from the

1:09:06

place of this is what love

1:09:08

is like for me, you know? What

1:09:11

have you both done, and maybe obviously speaking for

1:09:13

yourself, what have you

1:09:15

done to protect the relationship

1:09:19

apart from distancing yourself from the noise?

1:09:22

Yeah. What else has been

1:09:24

useful in protecting whatever

1:09:27

a relationship may be in any phase?

1:09:29

For me and for us, I think

1:09:31

immense honesty, just like over

1:09:34

communication, you know? Like I felt this way when

1:09:36

I was doing this interview and I said this

1:09:38

thing and I felt weird and I'm sorry if

1:09:40

it came off like that and, you

1:09:42

know, I love you and that's my, you

1:09:45

know, it just immediately cuts through any type

1:09:47

of assumption that I could make or she

1:09:49

could make from anything. And, you

1:09:52

know, we're both amazing at that. I'll be the first

1:09:54

to text her, she'll be the first to text

1:09:56

me. And we just, as long as we're good,

1:09:59

all the noise is just... noise and that's

1:10:01

been a huge part of it. Yeah. So rather than

1:10:03

be like, Oh, I hope they don't see that. Or I

1:10:05

hope they don't. Yeah. It's like, Oh, I'm just going to

1:10:07

tell them what I was, why I

1:10:09

was feeling that. Yeah. Yeah. And then how

1:10:12

do you open yourself up to receive that

1:10:14

honesty when it isn't comfortable, let's say. I

1:10:16

think it's also just a part of just

1:10:18

understanding the situation

1:10:21

we're in as, and not only

1:10:24

as, as, uh, celebrities, but artists,

1:10:26

you know, being two people that

1:10:28

make music and tell the

1:10:31

story of the heart and that's just a

1:10:33

big part of it. And we both are

1:10:35

very aware of that. You know, so just

1:10:37

having respect for the fact that we're

1:10:40

storytellers, you know. Wow. And that takes

1:10:42

a lot though. Yeah. That takes a

1:10:45

lot of maturity. Yeah, for sure. That's

1:10:47

like a really mature perspective to have.

1:10:50

Yeah. And I mean, we've been doing it since we're

1:10:52

very young. So I think at this point, we're just

1:10:54

like, we hopefully

1:10:56

just have a great, deep,

1:10:59

great respect. So I don't

1:11:01

think either of us would ever cross a line,

1:11:03

you know, we deeply respect each other. That

1:11:06

takes a lot, man. It's so hard to like, you

1:11:09

know, as I've always said to you,

1:11:12

you're an old soul because I'm like, I don't have

1:11:14

people like twice your age, maybe even more

1:11:17

than that, who struggle with that. Yeah. It's

1:11:20

so hard to actually have

1:11:22

that perspective and understanding

1:11:24

and respect for someone's personal,

1:11:27

professional, you know, orbit.

1:11:29

It is. It is. Yeah. And it's

1:11:32

hard when it's two people too. It's easy

1:11:34

for one person to do. I'm just lucky.

1:11:36

She's an amazing human being and she's incredibly

1:11:38

understanding and thoughtful and caring. So communicating

1:11:41

with her is not difficult. And I think

1:11:43

that's just probably a huge part of it.

1:11:45

Yeah. Why does it feel sometimes that you

1:11:49

can have two people who

1:11:51

respect each other so much, connect

1:11:53

so much, have so much admiration

1:11:55

and love for each other, but that it's

1:11:57

not right romantically? Like, why is that? because

1:12:00

you have this beautiful lyric that nobody

1:12:02

knows that says when you're so

1:12:04

in love and your souls touch, but it's still

1:12:06

not in love, where does it go? Like I

1:12:08

feel like that's something a lot of people have

1:12:10

been- Struggle with. Yeah. That's

1:12:13

a great question. It is a great

1:12:15

question. I don't have the probably greatest answer

1:12:17

for, I think that's exactly why I asked,

1:12:19

where does it go? Where does that love

1:12:22

go when it's so present? And

1:12:27

I think the best answer I can come up with is

1:12:29

just that love

1:12:31

is a lot, but

1:12:35

partnership is more than love.

1:12:38

And I think it

1:12:40

has a lot to do with how you

1:12:42

support each other in your

1:12:44

day-to-day life and really being honest about who

1:12:47

you are and making

1:12:49

sure that someone that you're with

1:12:51

is in support of that

1:12:53

and doesn't have to bend

1:12:55

themselves entirely to be in support of

1:12:57

that. And vice versa. And

1:13:00

I think it's

1:13:02

tough because you can go your whole life and

1:13:04

never feel that feeling of deep love

1:13:06

again. And I

1:13:11

think it's just really complex. It's

1:13:13

been something I think people have been trying to

1:13:16

figure out for a long time. And I

1:13:19

just think potentially, you mean we've talked

1:13:21

about love a lot. I think potentially we're

1:13:23

still all wrapping our heads around love and

1:13:25

we're still working through such westernized movie,

1:13:28

romanticized, dramatized versions of

1:13:30

it. And if you go

1:13:32

to places that have been less exposed to that

1:13:34

type of thinking, then maybe love is

1:13:36

a little simpler or a little more, I don't

1:13:39

know. And

1:13:42

so for me, hopefully there's a little

1:13:44

bit of both. Hopefully you can have

1:13:46

that spark and that magic and that

1:13:48

love, and you can also have that

1:13:50

compatibility where your two lives are working

1:13:52

in flow with each other. Obviously

1:13:56

you're gonna have to bend here and there, but I

1:13:59

think to a degree. Yeah, I

1:14:01

don't ask you or anyone because I think someone has

1:14:03

the perfect answer. I know I don't. I

1:14:06

ask because I think when people are

1:14:08

navigating something, that's when they have the

1:14:10

most reflective, variegated

1:14:13

view of it. Because when you're

1:14:15

actually going through it, you actually

1:14:18

can at least, people can hear themselves

1:14:20

in you, in your

1:14:22

voice. And that's what the song does. People

1:14:25

are listening to it going, gosh, am I with the

1:14:27

right person at the wrong time or is it the

1:14:30

wrong person at the right time or is it just...

1:14:32

And it's a constant question. It's like a constant question

1:14:34

to be like, I mean, that's also part

1:14:36

of it is like not, it's

1:14:38

okay to be unsure even if you're unsure

1:14:40

for the rest of your life. Like that

1:14:43

might be part of it and that's

1:14:46

that. I

1:14:49

mean, the art of what you're talking about in the

1:14:51

album, what you talk about, what we've talked about, what

1:14:53

you're speaking about is just this like, how

1:14:55

do we get comfortable with discomfort?

1:14:57

How do we get okay with

1:15:00

uncertainty? But

1:15:02

that's like, that is the hardest thing. And

1:15:04

like you said, it's not something that you ever get

1:15:06

to. It's something you're

1:15:08

constantly practicing, like constantly working on. And

1:15:10

I feel like romantic love

1:15:12

is the one that like exposes

1:15:14

everything because there's love, there's

1:15:17

envy, there's comparison, there's competition. Like

1:15:19

there's so many emotions that it

1:15:22

kind of triggers out in you. What

1:15:24

have you done to manage your

1:15:26

discomfort and uncertainty when it comes to?

1:15:28

To love or just generally? I'd say

1:15:31

both. Both, yeah, both. I mean,

1:15:33

I think it's a

1:15:36

lot of therapy, honestly.

1:15:39

And I think for me, it's just, I

1:15:42

think everyone's different. For me, it's really

1:15:44

helpful to just speak as practical as

1:15:46

I can about each situation. This

1:15:48

is what's happening and this is what's not

1:15:50

happening. And this is

1:15:52

what's going on and I'm feeling confused

1:15:55

and all of this

1:15:57

is just happening and that's okay. I

1:16:00

think to be honest, it's like, I'm currently not in

1:16:02

a relationship. So I'm sure I can't

1:16:05

wait to be back in the love spins,

1:16:08

all the emotions getting triggered and all this

1:16:10

stuff. Because being in a relationship is really

1:16:12

hard. I think sometimes it's easier from the

1:16:14

place of being single to be like in

1:16:17

a place of like, hey, like, you know, find

1:16:19

the balance. But like once you're in a relationship,

1:16:21

it's much harder. Well, once you

1:16:23

have something to lose, it's much harder to not

1:16:25

have a tight grip on it, you know? And

1:16:28

so we'll see when I'm

1:16:30

back in that state. No,

1:16:33

I love what you're saying because I've always said, and maybe

1:16:35

I've never even said this out loud, but I

1:16:37

always reflect on like, if

1:16:40

forever, for whatever reason, and not

1:16:42

that this is indicative of anything that's happening,

1:16:44

but if for whatever reason, me

1:16:46

and Radhi would ever go our separate ways,

1:16:49

it's interesting, I think a lot of people would say,

1:16:51

oh, but you told us you loved each other. Yeah.

1:16:54

And you told us you had the perfect relationship, and

1:16:56

which I have not, but, and I

1:16:58

don't have a perfect relationship, I've never claimed to

1:17:00

have one, but the viewpoint becomes, but you guys,

1:17:02

like, you know, Jay, you wrote a

1:17:05

book on love, like, how could you break up with

1:17:07

someone? And I'm like, no, no,

1:17:09

no, like, that's life, like, that's

1:17:11

reality, like, and I think we have

1:17:13

this view, again, clarifying, there's nothing going

1:17:15

on. Yeah, of course. I'm just saying

1:17:17

it for an example, because I think

1:17:19

it's so important to address these things,

1:17:22

because I think we have these very

1:17:24

fixed viewpoints of what something

1:17:27

should be, and what something should look like. And

1:17:29

I think it goes back to just like, I

1:17:31

don't know, like, maybe this sounds too idealistic,

1:17:33

or like, optimistic, but

1:17:36

like, I think it goes back to just

1:17:40

finding what

1:17:42

you actually, figuring out what it is you

1:17:44

actually want in life. Like, for me, it's

1:17:46

like, do I want to

1:17:50

be in a constant state of

1:17:52

like, I have someone, I have

1:17:54

this fiery thing that always is

1:17:57

mine, and it, It's

1:18:00

like more of that like ownership,

1:18:03

that like desire, which

1:18:06

is super enticing and gorgeous in itself, or

1:18:09

like, what is it that I actually want?

1:18:11

Or do I want to feel just

1:18:13

a general, more love from more places? And

1:18:16

do I want to feel supported

1:18:19

and like I'm growing and

1:18:21

like I'm being seen? And

1:18:24

if you really ask yourself that

1:18:26

question and then

1:18:28

you find an answer, which you might not, but if

1:18:31

you find an answer, then you

1:18:33

can start moving forward with what your

1:18:35

answer was. And for me, it

1:18:38

was really more of just like, I

1:18:40

really do want to just like have a greater, I

1:18:43

don't want all my eggs to be in one basket, you

1:18:45

know, because I don't know how life can go. Like things

1:18:47

happen, people die, people get sick, people, you

1:18:50

know, fall out. Like I, and I don't want

1:18:52

to be, I would love nothing

1:18:54

more than to meet my wife as I

1:18:56

walk out of the store today. But

1:18:58

like at the same time too, like, yeah,

1:19:01

I just want to, until that moment, I'd

1:19:05

love to be experiencing love also, you know? I

1:19:07

don't want to just wait till then, you know, so. There's

1:19:10

some fans outside waiting now, ready

1:19:13

to go. Sometimes

1:19:16

life can seem challenging and overcoming

1:19:18

problems can seem impossible. But

1:19:20

when you focus on your problems, it can keep

1:19:23

you from seeing the good in your life. One

1:19:25

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1:19:27

in perspective is acknowledging the small wins in life.

1:19:30

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1:19:32

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1:19:34

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1:19:37

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1:22:14

no, it's no I you know what that's what

1:22:16

I've always admired about you and I'm hearing it today I

1:22:18

hear it in the album like you've

1:22:20

just always focused on asking good questions Yeah, and

1:22:22

that's like your life like that's who you are

1:22:25

And I think that it's so

1:22:27

funny because as humans we get so

1:22:30

fixated on the answers We

1:22:32

get so fixated on just a few answers.

1:22:34

So we asked the same questions Yeah, like

1:22:36

will I ever find my person? Is this the

1:22:39

right person? Like we asked the same questions

1:22:41

and we don't ever get any better answers to

1:22:43

the same question Yeah, there's no answer to those

1:22:46

questions. There's no answer to those questions And

1:22:48

what I've seen in you is you're always trying to

1:22:50

ask like this wide array of questions Yeah that

1:22:53

you know, like where will it go? Yeah Like

1:22:55

isn't because the normal question to that will be

1:22:57

like like so when you're so in love and

1:22:59

your soul's touch But it's still not in love.

1:23:01

Where does it go? Most people would go? Well,

1:23:03

is that love or not? Yeah Does that mean

1:23:05

it was love? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's not

1:23:07

I don't question that there's zero doubt in

1:23:09

my mind That love is love. It's yeah,

1:23:11

it's like where does all

1:23:13

that love go to and I

1:23:16

think that question itself is like Oh it

1:23:18

that love is still completely here and able

1:23:20

to funnel into the same person if they're

1:23:22

willing to receive it in a

1:23:24

different light or funnel into anyone else around

1:23:26

you that you love, you know, and But

1:23:30

it's also like damn like

1:23:32

that Absolutely

1:23:34

sucks. Like that. There's just that is

1:23:36

just a Sucks,

1:23:40

you know, so I also

1:23:43

I also might have said like doesn't

1:23:46

that suck No,

1:23:51

but that's something I would have read Because

1:23:55

it does yeah, exactly the truth. Yeah goes back

1:23:57

to your point. Yeah of the truth. Yeah And

1:24:00

no, I really want to encourage people to, you know, I'm going

1:24:02

into my world a bit here, but everyone

1:24:04

who's listening and watching, I really hope this album

1:24:06

helps you ask different questions. Because

1:24:09

I feel like that's a real strength you have, and

1:24:11

I've learned through being in your company that you don't

1:24:13

really ask the same questions

1:24:16

that we all ask. And I think that's what's

1:24:18

led you on this beautiful journey and beautiful path

1:24:20

and been able to look at the

1:24:23

same things we all go through, but in a

1:24:25

different lens is because it's your ability to

1:24:28

always zoom out and ask a question that

1:24:31

isn't the obvious one. Oh, wow,

1:24:33

thank you. And it's really powerful, and I love

1:24:35

that it's through music, so. Yeah, sorry,

1:24:37

I went into bit self-development personal growth, but. No,

1:24:39

no, hey man, I'm right there. They

1:24:42

all know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for sure,

1:24:44

for sure. There's a

1:24:46

couple more lyrics here that I

1:24:48

love because they're just so powerful in the love

1:24:51

and relationship space that I have to bring them out. This,

1:24:53

yeah, this one, so, but what about the in-betweens?

1:24:56

You lay your head on me, living for the

1:24:58

next time that we touch, isn't that enough? Yeah.

1:25:01

Talk me through that. Yeah, I think

1:25:03

similarly kind of to what we were just saying

1:25:05

is if you're always

1:25:07

focused on the highs,

1:25:10

you might be waiting a while to receive

1:25:13

something special, you know, and all

1:25:15

these beautiful in-between moments, like even like

1:25:17

for me, allowing myself to

1:25:20

kind of like love

1:25:24

the moment before the show and

1:25:26

after the show and the

1:25:28

morning and all

1:25:31

of that really, it

1:25:34

does a lot of things, actually takes pressure off of

1:25:36

the show to have to be such a big deal.

1:25:39

And then it also just helps

1:25:41

me enjoy the day generally, much

1:25:43

more, you know? If I

1:25:45

sit there all day being like, there's one important thing

1:25:47

today and that's the show, that's basically one and a

1:25:49

half, two hours of my day. What

1:25:52

about the rest of it? I

1:25:54

wanna enjoy the in-betweens too, because they

1:25:56

are beautiful, you know? Yeah,

1:25:58

because otherwise our lives just book. They're

1:26:01

just, our life we look back, it's just the

1:26:03

highs and lows, you know? Yeah,

1:26:06

that, oh wow, like yeah, that's, yeah,

1:26:09

and I find like it's also then your

1:26:11

life becomes a waiting for... What

1:26:15

the next day, yeah. Yeah, and so you're living

1:26:17

in constant anticipation. Constant anticipation. Or constant anxiety for

1:26:19

something to end. Yes. And

1:26:21

that's the only in between you have. Absolutely. It's still linked

1:26:23

to a beginning and an end. Yeah. So

1:26:26

I'm in anticipation of when will that good

1:26:28

thing come? Yeah. And then I'm an anxiety

1:26:30

of when will this good thing end? Yeah. Yeah.

1:26:34

Yeah. Oof. One

1:26:36

last one, which you go so vulnerable on, you

1:26:38

say, where is it? Visions of

1:26:40

a naked in my head. But

1:26:43

I went off and chose my self instead. Yeah.

1:26:47

Yeah. I mean, that's, that's,

1:26:52

there is a voice

1:26:54

maybe, call it a voice or a feeling, I

1:26:56

think, inside of us. That

1:27:00

says sometimes like, this is what you got to

1:27:02

do. You got to do something hard here, you

1:27:04

know? And our very human

1:27:06

side will do everything in its power to

1:27:08

get you not to do that. And

1:27:11

it will just like show you images and

1:27:15

movies and the best

1:27:17

plot you've ever, you know. Live

1:27:19

in the torment of like, I'm happy to be in

1:27:21

the in between. I think the reality is

1:27:23

no one will ever know what it's like to be in

1:27:25

our bodies and to

1:27:28

feel what we feel and to know where we

1:27:31

know we're going. Because

1:27:33

oftentimes where we know we're going is not

1:27:35

something we can express through words to other

1:27:37

people. It's just a sense, a

1:27:39

sense of where I'm headed. And no one's

1:27:42

ever going to understand that. So

1:27:45

I just,

1:27:47

that stuff is just noise in the wind

1:27:49

for me. It feels like

1:27:52

we're talking something so surface here

1:27:54

about something so immensely deep and

1:27:57

complex that it's not even worth

1:27:59

it. and worth my time to go into

1:28:01

the answer to those questions because there's not even an

1:28:04

answer to those questions. And it's not a sense

1:28:06

of, I think, choosing to

1:28:09

live in torment. I think it's exactly

1:28:11

like listening

1:28:13

to yourself and

1:28:16

trusting that. And I had

1:28:18

a friend who was

1:28:21

going through a hard decision and they asked me, like,

1:28:24

I said, you just got to follow your intuition. And I'm

1:28:26

like, what does that feel like? And I'm like, well, I

1:28:29

can't necessarily, I'm like, I don't know, like a

1:28:32

little thing in your stomach or your heart. I'm

1:28:34

like, I actually don't know. But

1:28:36

this is clearly exactly the moment that

1:28:38

you are about to learn what it

1:28:40

feels like. And if you can't find

1:28:42

that sense of intuition, then at that

1:28:44

point, I don't know what guides us.

1:28:47

Also, if you're not

1:28:49

sure, you might not be ready to make

1:28:51

the decision yet. Like, there is

1:28:54

a pressure to make decisions all the

1:28:56

time. I understand you

1:28:58

don't want to waste people's time. I understand

1:29:00

you don't want to do the wrong thing

1:29:02

prematurely, but some things just

1:29:05

need to play themselves out. And I

1:29:09

think that's just a reality too. So

1:29:12

allow yourself to get to that place, but don't

1:29:14

let yourself go over that place, please. I'm

1:29:17

going to say this too, but it's

1:29:19

an interesting reflection I'm having right now. I actually feel

1:29:21

with you, we get a sense

1:29:23

of your old soul when, I

1:29:26

ask you a superficial question. And

1:29:29

actually, like, and I haven't tried to ask

1:29:31

any profound questions today because that's not my

1:29:34

goal, but there's a beautiful simplicity of you

1:29:36

that comes out because you

1:29:38

would never answer a basic simple question

1:29:40

in a basic simple way. And

1:29:43

that's what I think actually

1:29:45

kind of demonstrates where your

1:29:47

consciousness is in a

1:29:49

beautiful way. And so it's just a thought I'm

1:29:51

having right now. I'm like, I'm never going to ask you a profound question

1:29:53

ever again in my life, because that's not

1:29:56

it for you. For you, your essence

1:29:58

comes out when you're having like, a conversation

1:30:00

that people would think is really normal. Yeah. But

1:30:03

you just don't look at it that way. Does

1:30:05

that make sense? Totally. I almost

1:30:08

can't compute. It's like the thing happens

1:30:10

in my head where I can't compute

1:30:12

surface. And I'm like, it's

1:30:15

not computing. We got to get under it. That's

1:30:18

how we get to see that you're not computing.

1:30:20

Oh, that's cool. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally.

1:30:23

I only realized it while having this conversation. I

1:30:25

was like, oh yeah. But

1:30:27

yeah, I wanted to show you something because

1:30:29

I sent it. You'll

1:30:31

probably guess who it's from, which

1:30:34

I thought was really beautiful. Oh,

1:30:36

yeah. That's

1:30:39

beautiful, man. It's

1:30:41

Tony crying. What

1:30:44

was he crying about? I have probably a lot

1:30:46

of things. He's going through a lot of beautiful things

1:30:49

in his life right now too. But these

1:30:51

are my people. I

1:30:54

talk about like an album is

1:30:56

not just about making music if you let it.

1:30:58

It can also be about completely

1:31:02

changing your life and the

1:31:04

relationship to the people you've made the album with.

1:31:08

What this has done for me and these guys, they

1:31:11

became friendships to lifelong

1:31:14

friendships. What does it feel like

1:31:16

being in this room 10 years? Dude.

1:31:19

Since that to me feels like such an

1:31:21

incredible journey that we're going to be a

1:31:23

part of here. To

1:31:26

sit in here 10 years older. You were what?

1:31:28

You were 16. 15

1:31:31

going on 16. Yeah, I remember singing

1:31:35

Treat You Better in here. I

1:31:38

love that song. I

1:31:40

remember just like so much

1:31:44

inner torment and so much breakthrough. This

1:31:46

is a place of breakthrough for me.

1:31:48

This is always where I found

1:31:51

the wall and I've broken through it. It's

1:31:54

just a magical little place. It's like

1:31:56

my version of Hogwarts here. And

1:32:02

I'm just so happy, like this time around, like

1:32:04

what I've been really trying to do is everything

1:32:07

to be really have a lot of intention

1:32:09

of just like, we're here right now,

1:32:11

you know, and we're upstate and I'm gonna play a

1:32:13

show in a few days

1:32:15

where I made the album and it's like, you

1:32:18

have to work so much harder to

1:32:20

curate an experience when you

1:32:22

just allow the story, you

1:32:25

just kind of let the story happen

1:32:27

and support that, and it

1:32:30

just feels like, yeah,

1:32:32

I needed a lot of holding and even

1:32:35

just through this week, like the first little

1:32:37

show I did yesterday, like I needed to

1:32:39

be in this room, this room knows how

1:32:41

to hold me and yeah, man, just cool.

1:32:46

I just love it here, I'll be here for

1:32:48

many more years. Yeah, I

1:32:51

think, I feel like everyone can

1:32:53

find a similar place

1:32:55

like this for themselves. It may not be

1:32:57

a place where they record music, but a

1:33:01

place that they can turn to and come to and be

1:33:03

held by and be embraced

1:33:05

by and feel rooted and

1:33:07

feel nourished and yeah, I

1:33:11

hope this acts as a symbol to encourage people to look

1:33:13

for that and it could just be

1:33:15

a little tree somewhere on a hike, it could just,

1:33:18

what's your take on that? Yeah, look

1:33:20

for it or be open to the

1:33:22

fact that you might be in it

1:33:24

and you might know it very well

1:33:27

and yeah, it's just having

1:33:30

a space that

1:33:32

holds the intention of

1:33:35

the place you go to lay

1:33:38

it all out, really, like lay

1:33:40

it all out and break through and struggle

1:33:43

and not all studios

1:33:46

feel like this, it's also

1:33:48

a beautiful town we're into, like this

1:33:50

town is special and being in nature,

1:33:53

that's just like in the

1:33:55

winter, it gets really different here too, it's

1:33:58

a whole story. You've

1:34:00

had rain and thunder in this interview. You've had rain

1:34:02

and thunder every day. It's beautiful. You've

1:34:04

been looking out. I've been looking at it behind

1:34:06

you. It was raining. Yeah. Yeah. Sean,

1:34:10

you talked about your

1:34:14

sister and I talked about mine. And

1:34:16

Elia actually sent us a note. No

1:34:19

way. My sister? Yes.

1:34:22

Oh no, I'm going to cry already. Is

1:34:24

it okay if I read it to you? Sure.

1:34:26

Yeah. Daddy, it's

1:34:28

okay. Yeah. Thank you for letting me

1:34:30

40 inland go. You

1:34:33

just left the exceeds. Alright

1:34:36

good, but you really helped us. Okay.

1:34:39

Welcome riding on the road. Where have we

1:34:41

gotten the most

1:34:55

amazing friend, brother, son,

1:34:58

mentor, and artist. I'm

1:35:01

truly at a loss for words to describe

1:35:03

how proud I am of you, how proud

1:35:05

we all are. Your

1:35:07

music today feels like the most

1:35:09

genuine and authentic art you've ever

1:35:11

created. It's filled

1:35:14

with vulnerability, fear,

1:35:17

diversity, patience,

1:35:20

humility, pain, and

1:35:22

a sense of home. But

1:35:25

above all, it feels unapologetically

1:35:27

and beautifully you. Watching

1:35:30

you grow over the years has been such a

1:35:32

privilege. I feel extremely lucky

1:35:35

to be by your side as your little

1:35:37

sister and to be a part

1:35:39

of this incredible process with you. You've

1:35:41

taught me so much about connecting with my own

1:35:44

heart and body, tapping into

1:35:46

embracing my truths and

1:35:48

living with more love, perspective, and

1:35:50

abundance. I absolutely

1:35:52

adore your eagerness to learn and

1:35:55

the way you listen so thoughtfully. Eagerness is

1:35:57

a kind word. And

1:36:00

I'll be honest, I really enjoy watching

1:36:02

your unique YouTube videos with you. Honestly,

1:36:06

you're like a real life freaking

1:36:08

cool superhero to me. Thank

1:36:11

you for having the courage to be imperfect and

1:36:13

for sharing that with the world. Your

1:36:15

compassion and kindness both towards yourself

1:36:17

and others are real superpowers. We

1:36:20

all feel the depth of your connection through

1:36:22

your authenticity. It shines in everything

1:36:24

you do. And it's especially

1:36:27

powerful in Sean, the album lol. This

1:36:30

connection you create through your music

1:36:32

has helped me feel more grounded in my own life.

1:36:36

And I know it will resonate with others in

1:36:38

just as meaningful a way. It's

1:36:41

like nine hearts with love so

1:36:43

deeply. Oh

1:36:45

man, that's so beautiful. Thank you. That means

1:36:47

a lot. I

1:36:50

love you, Alina. Oh

1:36:53

man, yeah. She's

1:36:56

my best friend. Over

1:36:58

the last six months, we've just gotten so close.

1:37:03

My little big sister too, I think when

1:37:05

you start letting your little

1:37:07

sister be your big sister sometimes, you know.

1:37:10

It's such a beautiful experience when

1:37:14

you see your pain turn

1:37:17

into something beautiful. And then people

1:37:20

start to feel that way. And you got to believe people

1:37:22

when they tell you, you know, especially in people in my

1:37:24

life. Like, she would not say that if she didn't mean

1:37:26

it. Even for you. And

1:37:29

so, yeah, I'm just I'm kind of in awe of it

1:37:31

all and grateful for it all because although I was there

1:37:34

every day doing it, like there

1:37:36

really was a greater thing

1:37:38

at play. And yeah,

1:37:41

man, it's been it's been the most

1:37:43

healing thing I've

1:37:46

ever done. Yeah, I really hope people

1:37:48

feel that way, to be honest. Yeah. No,

1:37:51

I mean, I wanted you to hear

1:37:53

it from her because I feel like we

1:37:58

all need to hear it. Yeah, we all need to. to

1:38:00

hear it. And I can imagine that

1:38:02

when you finish an album, it's actually the

1:38:04

beginning of then sharing it with the world.

1:38:07

And so my hope today internally was like, I want

1:38:09

you to feel so much love and

1:38:11

so much support and so much embrace

1:38:14

so that as you go out and... I

1:38:16

thought of it almost like this, like at the

1:38:18

beginning it's this little spark that's so

1:38:20

tender and you have the

1:38:23

people you really trust and you show them little

1:38:25

clips of it, little voice memos and they put

1:38:27

little, they put their little twigs on it and

1:38:29

that flame starts to grow. And then you start

1:38:31

showing other people and they put a log and

1:38:33

I almost imagined my team and my friends and

1:38:36

my family each placing logs on this fire. And

1:38:38

now we just have this like massive

1:38:40

bonfire going there. If there was a hurricane, it

1:38:42

wouldn't blow it out. And it's just like, all

1:38:45

right, now we're good. Give it to the world.

1:38:47

It can handle anything, you know? And

1:38:49

that's really what it feels like. It feels

1:38:51

so much greater than anything I could be

1:38:54

a part of. And, but thank

1:38:56

you. That's really so sweet, man. I love

1:38:58

you, man. I always have. It's

1:39:01

really special for me as well, because I

1:39:03

feel like I've

1:39:06

said this to you and I want to say it out loud. It's the... You

1:39:11

had every reason when I met you to

1:39:13

just keep doing what

1:39:16

would have been the right

1:39:18

business decision, the right professional decision, the

1:39:21

right artist decision from a

1:39:23

results standpoint. And I

1:39:26

think your

1:39:28

bravery and courage at your age and

1:39:31

the maturity to step back and

1:39:34

actually say, I'm going

1:39:36

to go on a deep inward journey. And

1:39:40

I don't even want to use the words find yourself

1:39:42

because that would mean that you've completed it and now

1:39:44

you're sharing it. So just go

1:39:46

on a journey of self discovery and

1:39:49

adventure. And then

1:39:52

to come back to this when you

1:39:56

feel you're ready to share wherever

1:39:58

you currently are. it

1:40:01

would have been so much easier to

1:40:03

just not think about these things in

1:40:06

the short term. In the short term. And as

1:40:09

I've said to you before, I've seen people do that

1:40:11

for three or four decades and

1:40:14

then finally figure it out. And

1:40:16

the fact that you chose to do it so young

1:40:18

is an immense credit

1:40:22

to your incredible family, your friends,

1:40:24

to you, your team,

1:40:28

and everyone around you because you

1:40:30

made the hardest, most difficult

1:40:33

decision in your position. And

1:40:36

I'm so happy to just see

1:40:38

the fruits of it. Me too,

1:40:40

man. Because I still remember so

1:40:43

many conversations of...

1:40:45

Infinite. All the little

1:40:47

seeds that we planted

1:40:49

of like tension

1:40:52

and love and hope

1:40:54

and everything. It's all just

1:40:56

everything's blooming. We're standing in the farm

1:40:58

of just like everything at the same...

1:41:01

It's almost overwhelming the amount that starts

1:41:03

to happen in the harvest and it's

1:41:05

just, yeah, this season. And

1:41:07

I'm so humbled that you allowed me to not

1:41:09

only walk parts of that

1:41:11

journey, little parts of that journey with you,

1:41:13

but have this opportunity today too because it's

1:41:17

rare that you get to live in these

1:41:20

cycles with people, especially when we're so busy.

1:41:22

And so I'm so grateful

1:41:24

that this is the first of our

1:41:26

hopefully forever cycles. Yes, sir.

1:41:28

And I'm with you all the way. I love you. I'm

1:41:30

rooting for you. Thank you, Jay.

1:41:32

I got your back through it all. Thank you, man.

1:41:34

I know you do. Yeah, I really appreciate you, man.

1:41:36

You too, man. We end every on

1:41:38

purpose with a final five, which

1:41:41

are a fast five. You have to answer each

1:41:43

question in one word to one sentence. Let's give

1:41:45

it a shot. Let's try this. They're not superficial.

1:41:47

Don't worry. I'm not like, what's your favorite food? You

1:41:50

start getting long winded questions. Question

1:41:53

number one. Sean, these are your fast five.

1:41:55

Question number one. What is the best advice

1:41:57

you've ever heard or received? Wow.

1:42:04

Nothing's coming to mind. That's

1:42:07

good. I like that already. It

1:42:09

all sums up in an

1:42:11

energy, I guess, more that's just like anytime

1:42:14

someone says

1:42:16

something that

1:42:19

just allows there to be more space, you know.

1:42:22

Question number two, what is the worst advice

1:42:24

you ever heard? Um,

1:42:28

to suck it up. Question number three, how would

1:42:31

you define your current purpose? I

1:42:34

would define my current

1:42:36

purpose with just being committed

1:42:39

to be the most

1:42:42

honest version of myself in

1:42:44

every moment, you know. Um, I have a lot

1:42:46

of trust in what that will do in this world. Um,

1:42:54

and I think I've learned so much like even just to be

1:42:57

here, I've learned so much

1:42:59

about following my truth into

1:43:01

the dark and feeling like I'm letting

1:43:03

people down. But how

1:43:05

that led me into creating a really beautiful healing album

1:43:08

and hopefully how that will pick

1:43:10

people up. And it's kind of

1:43:12

all part of it. Question four, how would you define

1:43:14

your purpose? I

1:43:16

love you guys and I am beyond grateful for your patience

1:43:18

and your love. And

1:43:22

it's a beautiful thing to be growing up

1:43:24

at the same time as you. And

1:43:27