0:01

Hi, I'm Dr.

0:03

Scott. And

0:18

I'm Dr. Shiloh. And this is LA

0:20

Not So Confidential, the forensic psychology and true

0:23

crime podcast. Each week we explore

0:25

the intersection of psychology, the criminal justice

0:27

system, and entertainment. And today's

0:29

episode is on the forensic psych topic

0:31

of copycat crimes. This

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the limited series based on James Clouvelle's

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bestselling novel, search FX's Shogu,

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wherever you listen to podcasts. You

1:38

guys, the highly anticipated second season

1:40

of the hit podcast, Proof is

1:43

finally here. Proof is an investigative

1:45

true crime podcast co-hosted by Susan

1:47

Simpson of Undisclosed, we love her

1:50

and Jacinda Davis of Evil Lives

1:52

Here. Such a great show. I

1:54

mean, talk about some super smart

1:56

badass ladies. Yeah, no kidding. If

1:59

you haven't been listening. to their show, check this

2:01

out. Proof made headlines for its first season in

2:03

2022 after proving the innocence

2:05

of two Georgia men serving life sentences

2:07

for murdering their friend Brian Bowling when

2:09

they were just 17 years old. 25

2:11

years later on December 8th, 2022, both

2:13

men were finally freed

2:18

based on evidence that was

2:20

unearthed by Proof. In the

2:23

second season of Proof, Murder at the

2:25

Warehouse, Susan and Jacinda are on the

2:27

case again, this time traveling the streets

2:29

of Manteca California to uncover who really

2:32

murdered 18-year-old Renee Ramos. On June 5th,

2:34

2000, Ramos' body was

2:36

found buried under a pile of debris

2:39

inside the shell of a new Home

2:41

Depot building. Despite tips hinting at alternate

2:43

suspects, tips that were ignored until now,

2:45

Renee's boyfriend, 18-year-old skateboarder Jake

2:47

Silva, and Ty Lopes, 33-year-old uncle

2:49

of one of Jake's close friends,

2:52

were arrested and convicted of her murder.

2:54

We are huge fans of these

2:56

incredible women and they are making

2:58

a difference. Follow the case as

3:00

Susan and Jacinda uncover long overlooked

3:03

evidence about what really happened to

3:05

Renee by listening to Proof, Murder

3:07

at the Warehouse, wherever you get

3:09

your podcasts. Welcome

3:16

back everybody. It is March 2024. I almost

3:18

said 2023 but I got the

3:20

four in there at

3:24

the last minute, which is great.

3:27

So again, just to tease a

3:29

few things, we should have some

3:31

major announcements coming up as we

3:33

look to evolve our media presence

3:35

and our productions like we

3:37

do every couple of years. We try to kind

3:39

of bounce around and figure out a new way

3:42

and some interesting stuff is

3:44

coming up. Yes, and maybe you and I

3:46

will take that spring break that we always

3:49

promised ourselves. I don't know if we've ever said that

3:51

out loud to people but we

3:53

really don't take even major

3:55

breaks for the holidays. So

3:58

we are seriously thinking about it right now. you

4:00

guys. So just stay tuned for that

4:02

later this month once we, you

4:04

know, have a moment to breathe and discuss it

4:07

and decide what we're going to do.

4:09

But as we look towards spring, we are

4:11

also bringing you your monthly reminder about

4:13

CrimeCon UK, the ultimate true crime event,

4:15

which returns to London on September 21st

4:17

and 22nd, 2024. We want to get

4:19

this in the

4:24

forefront of your mind so it doesn't

4:26

sneak up on you. And if you're

4:28

planning on joining us, start making arrangements

4:30

because CrimeCon UK is the world's leading

4:33

true crime event and is

4:35

partnered by True Crime, which is

4:37

the expert led channel previously known

4:39

as CBS Reality available on your

4:42

platform of choice. I also want

4:44

to take a just a moment here

4:46

to say something that doesn't

4:48

necessarily just apply to CrimeCon UK, but y'all

4:50

right now and if you're listening to this

4:52

years in the future after the apocalypse or

4:54

whatever, plain

4:58

or airfare costs

5:00

are so low right now, it

5:02

is off the charts. Like I

5:05

literally just booked three

5:07

trips over the next nine months

5:09

because I was able to get major

5:12

round trips both domestic

5:14

and international for around

5:16

600 bucks. So, you

5:19

know, like I know everybody's in a different

5:21

financial situation. If you're trying to plan a

5:23

great vacation, this would might be one and

5:25

then to extend it because once you are

5:28

in England, it's just a hop, skip and

5:30

a jump to so many

5:32

other parts of the UK as well as

5:35

Europe and we wouldn't be encouraging you to

5:37

join us if we didn't think that this

5:39

event deserves such high praise.

5:41

You know, if you are a participant,

5:43

if you're a paid attendee, you'll sit

5:45

in on just amazing fascinating sessions with

5:47

some of the biggest names in true

5:49

crime and you get to share a

5:53

pint of lager or a shot with

5:55

your favorite podcasters. CrimeCon UK is really

5:57

an unforgettable way for you to really...

5:59

really join us in immersing ourselves

6:02

in an ethical true crime community.

6:04

Emphasis on the ethics. It is

6:06

the road right now in this

6:08

genre. And we want you to

6:10

join us on that road. Yes,

6:12

certainly. The perks have been

6:14

completely revamped this year as well. Pickets

6:16

will include free flow, tea, coffee, biscuits,

6:19

and flavored water over the entire weekend,

6:21

and you'll get to have plenty of

6:23

time to network with the crime contributors

6:25

at their tables. That includes us. And

6:28

the benefits for VIP ticket holders

6:31

have also been completely overhauled, giving

6:33

them exclusive access and far more

6:36

bang for their buck. So please consider

6:38

joining us this year. We're going to have

6:40

a brand new presentation for you. Use the

6:42

code confidential for your special 10% discount. And

6:44

the more of our listeners that use the

6:47

code, the more it helps offset the costs

6:49

for our trip and our accommodations. So please

6:51

don't forget to use code confidential for 10%

6:53

off. Head to crime

6:55

con.co.uk to book your tickets today.

6:57

Thanks so much folks. Yay.

7:00

I just put in my vacation time

7:02

at work for this. So that got

7:04

approved and I'm ready to take your

7:06

advice and buy my airfare. Okay.

7:09

So last week, it just did your

7:11

little recap. It was our documentary review.

7:14

We watched Chowchilla, which is

7:17

available on max and

7:19

on July 15th, 1976, in

7:22

Chowchilla, California, 26 children

7:24

and their school bus driver were stopped in

7:26

the middle of a rural road by three

7:29

armed men. The men systematically

7:31

kidnapped the driver and the children ages

7:34

from five to 14

7:36

and sequestered them in a dark and

7:39

virtually airless truck trailer that was buried

7:42

in a quarry, truly terrifying

7:44

stuff. So in a relieving

7:46

turn of events, the bus driver and children

7:48

managed to escape before the kidnappers could issue

7:50

their ransom demands. While all of the victims

7:53

survived, they have spent their lives dealing with

7:55

a multitude of symptoms of this trauma. So

7:57

you get to hear directly from. many

8:00

of them and also hear how

8:02

this impacted them over

8:05

decades. It's just a fascinating story

8:07

that once again, now I'm not

8:10

going to tell you what our final thoughts were

8:12

on it, but there's this theme again of it's

8:14

a story that really needed to be told. All

8:16

right. So what have we got this week? We

8:19

have a killer stalking his victims

8:21

while communicating with the police. Sounds

8:24

familiar? The Zodiac? Nope. Another

8:27

disturbed individual that was inspired

8:29

by Zodiac. A killer

8:31

prepares his kill room and then

8:33

lures his victim through a catfishing

8:35

expedition. Are we watching an episode of

8:38

Dexter? Nope. It's a

8:40

failed wannabe screenwriter discharging his

8:42

psychopathic rage on an innocent

8:44

victim. Well, these are just

8:46

two examples of a disturbing phenomenon.

8:48

There's important research done in this

8:50

specific domain. That's right folks.

8:53

Because today's episode is on the

8:55

phenomenon of copycat crimes. The emulation

8:57

of existing crimes is not unprecedented

8:59

as there have been numerous instances

9:02

throughout history of individuals imitating notorious

9:04

serial killers or individual killers and

9:06

some of them drawing inspiration from

9:08

films like Scream and Natural Born

9:11

Killers. Yes. And we want to

9:13

give a big thanks to our

9:15

Discord crew who suggested this topic.

9:18

Some of the questions posed when we were

9:20

having a little bit of discussion were along

9:22

the lines of, you know,

9:24

they wanted to know, have people been holding on

9:27

to a fantasy and then someone else does that

9:29

very thing and that triggers them too? Or

9:32

is it that they get the idea from

9:34

seeing someone do something and

9:36

then really that person ends up identifying

9:39

with them and their motivations and their

9:41

reasons? Or is it

9:43

trying to get away with a crime

9:45

by making it look like a pattern

9:48

of a different series of crimes? So

9:50

these are all fantastic questions, really good

9:52

considerations. So let's get

9:55

into it. Let's do what we're going to hit on today. So

9:57

copycat crimes or killings can cover a number of effects. offending

10:00

behaviors that are committed in a way

10:02

that was already established by a previous

10:04

crime committed by another person. Generally, the

10:06

criminal act is modeled after or inspired

10:08

by a crime that has been reported

10:10

in news outlets or even in published

10:12

fiction. It's been said that the year

10:14

1912 gave birth to

10:16

this particular type of murderer after intense

10:19

media coverage of the Jack the Ripper

10:21

murders seemed to have cultivated a multitude

10:23

of similar crimes and then the term

10:25

copycat effect started to get thrown around.

10:28

However, it seems that very few copycat crimes

10:31

are exact replicas of the event from

10:33

which they took the inspiration more commonly.

10:36

The copycat offender takes certain

10:38

elements of the original crime

10:40

like weapon choice, unique signature

10:42

elements, and selection of victim.

10:45

Very interesting from a side perspective that we'll be diving

10:47

into a little bit later. Yeah, so the

10:50

intention for today is to focus on more

10:52

of the violent, unique offenses like murder of

10:54

a single victim or a series of victims.

10:58

But I think we would be remiss if

11:00

we didn't look at some of the data

11:02

related to things like mass casualty events or

11:04

shootings of which we actually have

11:06

the most information related to contagion effect. Obviously,

11:09

it's been a very big deal here in

11:11

the United States, so a lot of research

11:13

has been done in that area in recent

11:15

years. But we'll also touch on offenses inspired

11:18

by offenders personally known to the quote-unquote

11:20

copycat offender as well. And

11:23

of course, we can't get away from

11:25

the notion of how the media can

11:27

potentially inspire copycat crimes and killings. So

11:30

we will see what the literature covers

11:33

in that realm as well on today's episode. So

11:35

just trigger warnings. Clearly,

11:38

we're going to be talking about

11:40

murder. A lot of those are

11:42

completed and inflict injuries by

11:44

means of firearms, knives,

11:48

anything else that we have? I

11:50

mean, it's kind of a blanket murder episode, if

11:52

you will. Murder episode. Not

11:55

murder by a blanket or suffocation, but, you know, just

11:57

we got a big umbrella of murder. No, there is

11:59

a lot. There's a lot that's going to

12:01

be just talking about sort of the inspiration

12:03

of the crimes, what elements were chosen. And

12:05

we're try again, we try and stay away

12:08

from the gore, but there are a couple

12:10

of things that are descriptive that are sort

12:12

of integral to the discussion of the psych

12:14

issues that push this type

12:16

of crime. So if you find yourself being

12:19

triggered, please, please take a break. That's what

12:21

that pause button is for, you know, keep

12:23

yourself safe folks because we care about you.

12:26

So I'm going to start with an example of

12:28

Mark Andrew Twitchell, who was born on July 4th,

12:30

1979. He

12:33

is or was a Canadian filmmaker, and

12:35

he has a pretty unique story that

12:39

sort of parallels a fictional

12:41

criminal slash antihero slash

12:44

is kind of literal, I guess. Twitchell

12:46

emulated this particular character from television, and

12:48

it took a dark turn when he

12:51

was convicted of actual first-degree murder in

12:53

April of 2011 for

12:55

the brutal killing of John

12:57

Bryan Altinger. In 2007,

12:59

Twitchell embarked on this cinematic journey

13:02

into the expansive universe of Star

13:04

Wars with his own directoral project

13:06

entitled Star Wars, Secrets of the

13:08

Rebellion. It was an ambitious fan

13:10

film, so remember that it's a

13:13

fan film that served as

13:15

a prequel to the iconic Star Wars

13:17

saga delving into the events occurring just

13:19

days before the commencement of Star Wars

13:21

Episode IV, A New

13:23

Hope. Twitchell himself was an absolute

13:26

uber fan of Star Wars movies,

13:28

Star Wars animation, George Lucas, and

13:30

he himself longed to expand on

13:33

the lore that was established by

13:35

Lucas in order to further his

13:37

own creative career. It

13:40

should be emphasized, though, that

13:42

in much of the research about

13:44

Twitchell and this particular crime, he

13:46

is described over and over again

13:49

as a filmmaker when he actually

13:51

really didn't make anything. He made one or

13:53

two shorts. This particular short, Star Wars, Secrets

13:55

of the Rebellion, has never been released, although

13:58

he was a fan of the film. He

14:00

was able to get, I think, at

14:02

least two known actors to engage

14:04

in the production of it. So,

14:08

you know, he's listed on IMDB,

14:11

but only with credits of his

14:13

post-incarceration interviews. Got it. Well,

14:16

I mean, as a fellow Star Wars nerd, I'm here

14:18

for this already, but I feel like it's gonna

14:21

get dark. Right. And, you know,

14:23

I should say, this is Tess, as a

14:26

Star Wars fan. I want to look at

14:28

this because I know where it's going and

14:30

say, like, oh, is there some hyper-fixation here

14:32

that then ends up turning

14:35

dark? But I don't know. A lot

14:37

of us are hyper-fixated. I

14:39

have a whole plastic

14:41

tub full of Star

14:43

Wars figures. Yeah. I thought I

14:45

was gonna say something gross and bad, right? I

14:47

did not. No, I don't. In their packages? Because

14:49

you and I both, we both have our interests

14:52

and like we kind of go, we fixate on

14:54

something for a while and then we're like, oh,

14:56

I'm gonna go do this. And I'm like, oh,

14:58

now I'm gonna do this. That's completely normal. And

15:00

especially in today's sort of

15:03

hyper-anxious world that we live in, these

15:05

are the things that we do for self-care. It's

15:07

like, these are the things I'm gonna take myself

15:09

out of the stressors of the daily world. I'm

15:12

gonna play with my action figures. I'm gonna take my green

15:14

arrow figure and see if I can shoot

15:16

it from a force perspective so it looks

15:18

real from the talk of my garage. Whoa,

15:20

whoa, whoa. I don't know about that. I

15:22

don't do that. Okay. Too much

15:25

information, right? I'm in search for a figure I

15:27

don't have. Okay. Oops,

15:29

a little bit revealing there. I'm not into

15:31

the larping, all right. All

15:35

right. So despite the enthusiasm surrounding

15:37

the secrets of the rebellion, the

15:39

film encountered challenges during post-production, ultimately

15:42

leading to, like you said, it's never being

15:44

released to the public. In

15:46

addition to his venture into the Star

15:48

Wars universe, Twitchell scripted Day

15:51

Players, a comedic bro-sploitation film that

15:53

explored the misadventures of a group

15:55

of friends, and yet another

15:57

project that did not meet the light of day. However,

16:00

in September 2008, Twitchell embarked on

16:02

a different cinematic endeavor by directing

16:05

House of Cards, a short horror

16:07

film that unfolded within the confines

16:09

of a garage rented in the

16:11

southern outskirts of Edmonton. But

16:13

let's rewind for a moment and delve into

16:16

the life of John Brian Altinger, Twitchell's victim.

16:19

His story, like many victim

16:21

stories, often get overshadowed. He

16:23

was a 38-year-old former oil field equipment

16:25

manufacturer from White Rock, British Columbia, and

16:27

he was seeking companionship, leading him to

16:30

create and use a profile on the

16:32

website called Plenty of

16:34

Fish in October 2008. In

16:36

October 10, just two days later of 2008,

16:40

Altinger enthusiastically informed all of his friends

16:42

of his plans to meet with this

16:44

great woman that he had been chatting

16:46

with online, and he provided them with

16:49

the address provided by Twitchell, very smart,

16:51

even for a man like anybody going

16:53

on an online meet. Please

16:55

alert all of your friends as to all the

16:57

plans and meet in a public space. Again,

17:01

Twitchell had provided

17:03

this address and had catfished Altinger

17:06

that he was a woman, but

17:08

on Altinger's arrival at this specified

17:10

location, Twitchell immediately attacked him by

17:12

bludgeoning and stabbing him to death,

17:14

brutal, brutal death. Twitchell

17:16

unsuccessfully tried to dispose of the body by

17:18

burning it, but eventually had to resort to

17:20

dismembering the remains and disposing of them, each

17:23

individually wrapped in plastic and then dumped

17:25

in a storm sewer. After

17:28

committing the murder, Twitchell went to great lengths

17:30

to cover up his crime, sending fake emails

17:32

from Altinger's accounts to deceive his

17:34

friends and family, and even broke

17:36

into Altinger's condominium to maintain this

17:38

illusion of normal sort of moving

17:40

things around and leaving dishes and,

17:42

you know, just to cover his

17:45

tracks, as it were. Yes, but

17:47

however, his absence raised concerns

17:49

among his friends who received

17:51

emails purportedly from Altinger with

17:53

claims that the whirlwind romance

17:55

of his online connection moved

17:58

immediately to an extended location. vacation

18:00

in Costa Rica. Twitchell took

18:03

additional steps to cover up the crime. He

18:05

even sent a resignation email to

18:08

Altinger's workplace, but forgot to provide

18:10

a forwarding address for his final

18:12

paycheck. Altinger's friends, convinced

18:14

that something was very wrong, followed

18:17

through with their own investigation and gained

18:19

entry into his condo. They

18:21

found no preparation for a trip, including

18:23

Altinger's passport and his files, and

18:26

now, knowing that there was no truth to the

18:28

stories coming from the emails, they

18:30

alerted the authorities, prompting the Edmonton Police

18:32

Service to launch a homicide investigation. That's

18:35

taking a big chance, and certainly don't

18:37

want to minimize that clearly he had

18:39

a circle of friends that very much

18:41

cared about him. However, folks, if you

18:43

have any kind of inkling

18:45

like this that something is happening, don't

18:47

disturb a crime scene. That's

18:50

like sort of number one.

18:52

Don't disturb anything that could

18:54

impede a legit homicide

18:57

investigation. I mean, it's weird to be saying

18:59

that because clearly probably most of our listeners

19:01

would have that thought anyway.

19:04

But during the initial interviews, Twitchell

19:06

concocted this out

19:08

there narrative, claiming that he

19:10

had encountered Altinger by a

19:12

chance meeting. And according to

19:14

Twitchell's account, Altinger sold his

19:16

Mazda 6 to Twitchell for

19:18

a ridiculously low price of

19:20

$40 Canadian, which is low

19:22

no matter if it's an American

19:24

dollars or Canadian dollars. It's incredibly

19:27

low. And he told

19:29

Twitchell that he was selling it so

19:31

low because he had found himself a

19:34

wealthy girlfriend, and they were going immediately

19:36

to this wonderful resort in Costa Rica,

19:38

and he didn't need a car anymore.

19:42

So clearly a story like that is just

19:44

not going to hold water at all. And

19:46

that led police to seize Twitchell's laptop and

19:48

car where they discovered a great

19:50

deal of damning evidence, including traces of

19:53

Altinger's blood in the car's trunk. Twitchell

19:55

was arrested on October 31, 2008

19:58

and charged with the first degree murder of a

20:00

woman. of John Brian Altinger. Through the

20:02

trial process, it was revealed that Twitchell

20:04

had a fixation with the fictional character

20:07

Dexter Morgan from the television series, Dexter.

20:10

His most true crime listeners will immediately

20:12

recognize Dexter was based upon the premise

20:14

that a hardwired psychopath had been

20:16

contained and corralled by his adopted

20:19

law enforcement father to discharge

20:22

his dark urges on other criminals

20:24

in the community. And to quote

20:26

Dexter's dad, some people deserve

20:29

to die. According to

20:31

the trial defense and testimony, Twitchell's

20:33

obsession with a fictional character seemed

20:35

to blur the lines between reality

20:37

and fantasy for him leading

20:39

to the brutal murder of Altinger. Despite

20:42

Twitchell's attempts to justify his actions

20:44

of self-defense and portray his writings

20:47

as fictional, the evidence spoke volumes

20:49

clearly. The Canadian court presented very

20:52

much damning evidence, including a

20:54

document titled SK Confessions recovered

20:57

from Twitchell's laptop. This was a

20:59

document that detailed the planning and

21:01

execution of Altinger's murder. Another document

21:04

entitled A Profile of a Psychopath

21:06

provided further insight into Twitchell's disturbed

21:09

mindset. In the end, Twitchell was convicted of

21:11

first degree murder and sentenced to life in

21:13

prison without the possibility of parole for a

21:15

minimum of 25 years. Okay,

21:18

so quite a tale, but is that

21:20

enough to label that crime a copycat

21:22

killing? Let's look

21:25

into the research. Hey,

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22:02

Scott and I know you've heard the old

22:04

adage that you should learn something new every

22:06

day. I mean, I would love to

22:09

do that, but with so much to do, how

22:11

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22:13

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22:15

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22:18

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22:20

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22:22

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22:27

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22:29

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22:32

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22:34

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22:43

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22:45

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22:47

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22:51

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22:53

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22:55

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22:58

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23:00

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23:02

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23:07

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23:09

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Learn something new every single day with

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23:50

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24:00

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24:03

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or not. Available wherever you

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get your podcasts. So

24:16

despite the possibility of some people

24:18

believing that Jack the Ripper copycats

24:20

existed, the term copycat was initially

24:22

coined to describe patterns of criminal

24:24

behavior by David Dressler, a former

24:26

executive director of the New York

24:29

State Division of Parole and

24:31

a sociologist himself in 1961. His

24:34

article, The Case of the Copycat Criminal was published

24:37

in the New York Times on December 10th of

24:39

that year. The article subtitle,

24:42

quote, When Crime Comes in Ways,

24:44

Simple Imitation Plays a Large Part

24:46

in the Phenomenon, end quote, succinctly

24:48

summarizes Dressler's main argument. According

24:51

to Dressler, when a series of similar

24:53

crimes occurs within a specific period, there

24:56

is a high probability that the criminals

24:58

are emulating one another. So let's

25:00

talk about what we're actually saying when

25:03

we say copycat crimes. A good way

25:05

to start is by looking at the

25:07

contagion effect as studied in the field

25:09

of criminology. So it's crucial to differentiate

25:12

between criminal contagion and criminal imitation, both

25:15

in theoretical criminology and in practical

25:17

law enforcement. Criminal contagion

25:20

occurs when one person's criminal

25:22

behavior triggers a criminogenic tendency

25:25

in another individual. So

25:27

this, along with other factors, can lead to

25:29

the development of a criminal personality rather

25:32

than the direct commission of specific

25:34

criminal acts. So

25:37

on the other side of

25:39

it, criminal imitation implies a

25:41

preexisting criminal personality that looks

25:43

to others for specific ideas

25:45

on how to commit criminal

25:47

acts. I love

25:49

that sentence because it's so direct

25:52

and it immediately puts this picture

25:54

in your mind and

25:56

I'm not trying to be funny, but to me

25:58

it actually is funny. So it's like. I've

26:00

got this criminal personality, but

26:04

I don't really have any of my own

26:06

ideas about what to do. I

26:08

don't know what to do. It's like, like one of

26:10

those late night commercials for a cat snappler. Like are

26:12

you tired of like, but you just can't figure it

26:14

out. Like dumb asses that can't open

26:16

a bag of popcorn or something. Right? Do

26:19

you have a criminal personality and don't know what to do with it? We

26:21

have a solution. It's called copycat. Oh

26:24

shit. Oh shit. It's

26:27

very interesting to me because this behavior

26:29

completely relies on many

26:32

external factors that will

26:34

create opportunities. So you're

26:36

looking at criminal opportunities such as

26:38

time, place, victim, and weapon. And

26:41

those have to be distinguished

26:43

from more general criminogenic circumstances.

26:45

For example, let's say substance

26:47

users or abusers who

26:49

progressively turn to property

26:51

crimes due to their addiction. They

26:54

demonstrate the contagious effect of

26:57

substances on crime while violent

26:59

crimes committed by intoxicated individuals

27:02

showcase situational expressions

27:05

of already established criminogenic

27:07

tendencies. That is

27:10

really great research to have to

27:12

understand what the drive is. And

27:14

I love that like that's that

27:17

wonderful Venn diagram overlap of criminology

27:19

and forensic psychology to understand

27:22

these drives. So

27:24

in the same vein, a cluster

27:26

of suicides using similar methods can

27:28

only be attributed to imitation. And

27:31

that assumes that a pre-existing suicidal

27:34

inclination exists. So

27:36

if we seek to have understanding

27:39

of the origins of imitative criminal

27:41

behavior, that is completely crucial for

27:43

crime scene investigators and homicide or

27:46

just crime investigators in general. Right?

27:49

Whereas the effects of crime contagion

27:52

are relevant to efforts aimed at

27:54

preventing criminality. But again,

27:56

why? Like we're

27:58

clearly reflecting research. that shows

28:00

a solid pre-existing criminal personality that's

28:03

involved in the commission of copycat

28:05

crimes. But why not

28:07

go for it on your own

28:09

inspiration? Why copy screen or the

28:12

Boston Strangler, the Zodiac, Dexter, Columbine,

28:14

all of these? Why is this

28:16

individual needing inspiration? Yeah, maybe

28:18

they're missing a creativity piece. I

28:21

don't know. But let's break away

28:23

from talking about contagion effect just for

28:25

a sec to look at the media's

28:27

role in all of this. Of

28:29

course, we're going to defer to our esteemed

28:32

colleague, Dr. Joni Johnson, who just nails

28:34

it in her article. Oh,

28:37

good. Such a good writer. I mean, among everything

28:39

else that she does, what a great writer. Oh

28:41

my gosh, I know. I was like, oh, of course

28:43

she has an article on this when we're doing our

28:45

research. Yes. But her article is

28:47

in Psychology Today and it's on copycat

28:49

criminals. And she has

28:51

a paragraph here that reads, quote, research

28:54

tells us that no amount of sensationalized

28:56

crime coverage will send a

28:58

happy, well-adjusted citizen over the

29:00

edge. For individuals predisposed to

29:02

violence, though, crime-related media can stand

29:05

the flames of violence in two

29:07

ways. First, it

29:09

can lower that person's natural human

29:11

inhibition against killing by allowing him

29:13

to create some psychological

29:15

distance from what he is about to do. Temporarily

29:18

taking on a persona or a

29:21

character of someone else makes it

29:23

easier to harm others. It

29:25

allows him to act in a way in

29:27

which he generally would not act otherwise and

29:30

psychologically separate his own identity from

29:32

the role he is playing. This

29:35

is most likely to happen in the

29:37

two weeks after a high-profile murder, end

29:39

quote. Again, she just nails it, you

29:41

know, so direct and understandable and frightening

29:43

too. I mean, like it's great that

29:45

we have this research and

29:47

she also goes on to point out the even

29:50

further the influence of media and

29:53

it can actually play a role

29:55

in the operationalization of these fixated

29:57

and darkly inspired criminals crime media.

30:00

itself can be a

30:02

potent educational tool that is utilized

30:04

by the criminal. I'm telling

30:06

you, forensics files has so many people

30:08

like, you know, putting their fingers together.

30:10

Okay. This is how I get rid

30:13

of the evidence. Okay. Right. Inspiration.

30:15

If there's already a tether to

30:17

criminality and the psyche of the

30:19

potential perpetrator, violent media can direct

30:21

the quote unquote motivated person to

30:24

further break down the discharge of this

30:26

dangerous aspect of shadow self. Now, those

30:28

are my terms. Dr. Joni does not

30:31

go so far as to go into

30:33

psychodynamic factors. That's me saying that, but

30:35

I'm kind of jumping on her back

30:37

for this. And also according

30:39

to Dr. Joni, they have a

30:41

framework. These perpetrators have a framework

30:43

for where, what, and how to

30:46

succeed. And media for

30:48

this subpopulation can also act as

30:50

a reinforcer of the idea that

30:52

replicating or surpassing the original crime

30:54

will fulfill a need for attention

30:57

or publicity at the level or

30:59

more of the precipitating crime received.

31:01

I'd go so far as to

31:03

hypothesize that copycat crimes, particularly the

31:06

more brutal and widely known ones

31:08

act as a narcissistic extension for the

31:11

personality disordered criminal. I

31:13

would agree. So we

31:16

know that the research concludes

31:18

that violent entertainment does not

31:20

cause people to act out violently. However,

31:23

according to Jacqueline Hellscott, a

31:25

criminal justice professor at Seattle

31:28

university, certain studies indicate

31:30

criminals derive ideas for their crimes

31:32

from the news media, noting

31:35

a discernible effect of media on at

31:37

least a segment of the population. So

31:40

she is certainly backing up what

31:42

Dr. Joni is saying.

31:44

And we're layering research on

31:46

top of each other that is really saying some of

31:49

the same things, but also pointing out different aspects here.

31:52

And Hellscott states, quote,

31:54

excessive media attention to a particular type

31:56

of crime can be a risk factor

31:58

for criminal behavior. She

32:00

also identifies a subgroup called

32:02

edge sitters, individuals teetering

32:05

between normal and criminal behavior,

32:07

and she says a lot

32:09

of things can provoke them, including pop

32:11

culture, which increases the likelihood of engaging

32:13

in criminal behavior. For instance,

32:15

if an edge sitter hears about, say,

32:17

a subway slashing on the news, they

32:19

might be motivated to commit a similar

32:21

act if they were contemplating a similar

32:24

act already. However, HealthGOT

32:27

acknowledges that some researchers argue

32:29

media coverage is not influential.

32:31

While many people watch the news, it

32:34

is true that not all are prompted to commit

32:36

crimes because they saw someone else do it on

32:38

TV. So we do have to

32:40

look at the phenomenon of contagion effect

32:42

and mass shootings. Contagion effect is probably

32:44

the most associated these days with assessing

32:47

threat in large scale events like mass

32:49

shootings, and it's both integral

32:51

and truly disturbing to know that

32:53

one in five mass shooting perpetrators

32:56

that's 21.6% studied

33:00

other mass shooters in preparation for carrying

33:02

out their own shooting sprees. For instance,

33:04

one shooter that the researchers at the

33:06

violence project interview discussed that the research

33:09

he had done on Columbine, and then

33:11

he recounted how he had related to

33:14

what those perpetrators were feeling,

33:16

most notably anger and suicidal

33:18

ideation, and that he

33:20

felt a bond with them even though

33:23

he wasn't even alive when Columbine occurred.

33:26

Essentially, he was describing how he

33:28

had formed a relationship with them

33:30

through his research. So

33:32

threat assessment research has shown a measurable

33:34

increase in the likelihood of second mass

33:37

shootings in the days after one occurs.

33:39

There is approximately a 13-day window between

33:43

one mass shooting and the next. Yeah,

33:46

so you know, be

33:48

wary of that. Listen up for

33:50

that when you hear about one,

33:52

and these days it almost

33:54

always occurs. So regarding

33:57

the seemingly back-to-back shootings in Buffalo and

33:59

then Yuvaldi, Dr.

34:01

Peterson of the violence project said

34:03

this quote, you had an

34:05

18 year old commit a horrific mass

34:08

shooting. His name is everywhere. And we

34:10

spend all these days talking about replacement

34:12

theory. Replacement theory is

34:14

basically a racist conspiracy theory that claims

34:16

white people are being replaced by

34:18

minorities and people of color. And he

34:20

goes on to say that that shooter was

34:23

able to get our attention. So if you

34:25

have another 18 year old who's on the

34:27

edge and watching everything, that could be enough

34:29

to embolden him to follow. We have seen

34:32

this happen before. Absolutely. I

34:34

mean, I not to necessarily

34:36

take a humorous turn on

34:38

it, but there are

34:40

other examples of just really

34:44

mindlessness and

34:47

lack of insight into the imitation

34:49

of media behaviors. We see it

34:51

in the Real Housewives series.

34:55

We saw it very much

34:57

in the Jackass series. I

35:00

mean, Johnny Knoxville and his

35:02

production team were sued multiple

35:04

times by kids getting severely

35:06

injured as if they thought

35:09

that the little warning chiron at the beginning

35:11

of each episode was going to make a

35:13

difference. Most notably that putting a

35:15

firecracker in your butthole and setting it on fire is not a good

35:17

thing to do. It's not a good thing or

35:19

the kid who covered himself in stakes and

35:21

jumped on a grill, just

35:23

really, really stupid, stupid things.

35:26

But again, behavior is

35:28

influenced by media. There

35:30

is a lot about storytelling

35:33

that draws people in. And if we

35:35

don't teach our kids and we

35:37

don't encourage people around us to have insight

35:39

and critical thinking about the decisions they're making,

35:42

then these types of things can have

35:45

a tendency to snowball. But

35:47

what about high crime areas? Let's

35:49

talk about contagion effect or issues

35:51

that emerge in high crime areas

35:54

where lower level yet chronic criminal

35:56

behavior is being exhibited

35:58

and examined. Are the

36:01

next generation of offenders getting inspired by neighborhood

36:03

criminals as a matter of proximity? It's not

36:05

that simple. So in 2007, a

36:07

paper in the Journal of Law and Economics sought

36:09

to look at whether or not, quote-unquote,

36:12

crime was contagious for

36:14

the purposes of guiding law enforcement

36:17

and policymakers to consider how people

36:19

are sorted across social settings. They

36:22

tested one hypothesis that

36:24

criminal behavior is contagious by using

36:26

data from the Moving to Opportunity

36:28

housing experiment to examine data points

36:30

related to crime rates. The MTO

36:33

experiment is very interesting. It started

36:35

in 1994, and it

36:37

provided 4,600 low-income families living

36:39

in public housing within some

36:42

of the most disadvantaged urban

36:44

neighborhoods in the nation. And

36:47

these people were given the chance to

36:49

move to private market housing in much

36:52

less distressed communities. Families were

36:54

randomly assigned to one of three

36:56

groups. A group offered a

36:58

housing voucher that could only be used

37:00

to move to a low-poverty neighborhood. A

37:02

group offered a traditional Section 8 housing

37:04

voucher and a control group. Several

37:07

data points have been collected in this

37:09

experiment over the years by interviewing the

37:11

families and tracking their quality of life.

37:15

So the research conducted in 2007

37:17

utilized measures of neighborhood crime rates,

37:19

poverty, and racial segregation in their

37:21

analysis of individual arrest outcomes. They

37:24

were unable to detect evidence

37:26

in support of the contagion

37:28

hypothesis. Neighborhood racial segregation

37:31

appeared to have been the most

37:33

important explanation for across-neighborhood variation in

37:35

arrests for violent crimes in their

37:37

sample. And

37:40

they hypothesized that perhaps it was due

37:42

to the drug market activity that was

37:44

found to be more common in high-minority

37:47

neighborhoods. So essentially, it's not

37:49

appropriate to look at crime that is

37:51

potentially driven by economic status or

37:53

due to generation of people just stuck in

37:56

a cycle of less privileged

37:58

opportunities and say, well, they're just awkward. copycatting

38:00

each other. Yeah, right. I mean,

38:02

it, it sounds kind of ridiculous to

38:04

even say this, but high crime areas are

38:06

not feeding some sort of mass

38:09

contagion effect. It's so

38:11

much deeper than that. It feels like a totally

38:13

different thing altogether. Well, it is, but

38:15

I think it was worth the mention because we

38:18

just need a little spot to kind of

38:20

plug this in there when you think high crime.

38:23

Absolutely. It's important research and

38:25

it pushes back against right-wing

38:28

media presentation of what's going on

38:30

in the community and what's being

38:32

churned around and fed as chum

38:34

to like ultra ultra right-wing conservatives

38:37

that just want to eat this

38:39

stuff up, there's nothing to support

38:42

those hypotheses. Here is, this is science folks.

38:44

We did a study and we showed that

38:46

it doesn't exist. Yeah. An

38:48

incredibly robust study using that really

38:50

interesting experiment. And

38:52

yeah, I think when this

38:54

topic was posed to us, certainly our

38:57

listeners were interested in, you know, kind

38:59

of the more one-offs and the outliers,

39:02

but I thought, why can't we

39:04

look and see what it says

39:06

about really this low level, very

39:08

common, like everyday crime and yeah,

39:11

there it is. And it's just that one

39:13

is definitely not simple. Now on

39:15

the flip side, turning to uncommon crimes

39:17

that seem to spark similar events.

39:20

Also not simple because there's not a huge

39:23

population of that to study. However,

39:25

it has been examined from time to time, especially

39:28

when it hits the media and when the

39:30

media decides to run with it. So

39:33

as an example, in 1987

39:35

in Southern California, it appeared

39:37

to be the absolute epicenter

39:39

of violent firearms based road

39:41

rage incidents, where we

39:43

experienced almost 70 freeway shootings

39:45

over a span of just 10 summer

39:48

weeks. The shootings resulted in

39:51

at least five fatalities and 11

39:53

injuries. And Ray Novakko, a

39:55

professor, a psychology professor at the

39:57

University of California, Irvine, who. extensively

40:00

researched this violence, commented, it was a

40:02

new phenomenon at the time. So it

40:04

garnered a lot of attention. And

40:07

then you have the subway slashings in New York city in between

40:09

the end of 2015 and the beginning of 2016,

40:12

where numerous people were randomly

40:15

targeted on or near subway

40:17

platforms and sliced with sharp

40:19

objects, just horrible. Raymond

40:21

Surratt, the criminologist at the University of

40:23

Central Florida, lent his voice to a

40:25

conversation in 2016 by saying, quote,

40:28

the challenge with any surgeon crime

40:30

is distinguishing between an escalation in

40:32

reporting and an actual

40:35

rise in criminal activity, close quote.

40:37

And I could literally spend the

40:39

next 90 minutes talking

40:41

about what I have to listen

40:43

to dumbasses say on a daily

40:45

basis, making assumptions like this, about

40:47

the rise in

40:49

crime, and then you, you confront them with,

40:51

oh, well, let's look at the stats. And

40:53

then they look at you with that, like,

40:56

confused dog look, you know, like you just

40:58

can't even have the conversation. It's like, and

41:00

what's another version of this is, well, you

41:02

know, back when I was growing up, we

41:04

didn't have all this LGBTQ and autism stuff.

41:06

It's all new. It's like, I

41:09

mean, you're like, I don't even have

41:11

the psychic energy to respond to that.

41:13

It's like, walk away, just walk away.

41:15

Yeah. I just love that. Surratt actually

41:17

says that. So I'm going to, I'm

41:19

going to replay that quote because I

41:21

think it's so important. The challenge with

41:23

any surgeon crime is distinguishing between an

41:26

escalation in reporting versus

41:28

the actual rise in criminal activity.

41:31

Surratt goes on to emphasize that

41:33

an increase in media coverage of

41:35

a specific crime type does not

41:37

necessarily indicate a corresponding increase in

41:40

the occurrence of that crime. It

41:42

could just mean that that particular type of

41:45

crime is receiving more media attention than usual.

41:47

He goes on to note that

41:50

while criminology has historically acknowledged the

41:52

concept of copycat crimes, it has

41:54

not typically done so in relation

41:56

to media influence

41:58

because really that's probably. I

42:00

mean, looking at it from a big picture in

42:02

the last 45 to 55 years, that has changed everything.

42:07

It is now a major research factor

42:10

that needs to be considered really in

42:12

any kind of study is what are

42:14

the pressures coming to bear from exposure

42:16

to media that is generated by a

42:18

corporation or by an individual for

42:21

whatever set of reasons. So Sorette

42:23

goes on to assert that, quote,

42:25

the only definitive way to determine

42:28

if a crime is a copycat

42:30

is to apprehend the criminal and

42:32

inquire directly why they committed the

42:34

act. Close quote. I'm

42:37

all for this. Very simple. So

42:40

why did you wear a ghost faced killer

42:42

mask and a long black robe and run

42:44

around with a butcher knife? Tell

42:47

us more about that. I just want to, I just want to get a

42:49

little bit more information. Help me understand

42:51

your choice of costume. Yeah. Ghost

42:54

face. I want to note that in

42:56

even in such situations, interrogators, evaluators, you

42:59

have to rely on the self-report, quote,

43:01

unquote, honesty of criminals. And as we

43:03

all know, that's not always guaranteed because

43:05

there could be a secondary gain or

43:08

an ulterior motive that is being expressed

43:10

by that individual who is being interviewed.

43:13

So at the time, Sorette pointed

43:15

out that the lack of comprehensive

43:17

research on copycat offenders was pretty

43:19

significant. He explained that while there's

43:21

a general understanding that crime waves

43:23

often exhibit predictable patterns and typically

43:25

last around two to three months,

43:28

there wasn't sufficient data from the

43:30

New York city slashings to conduct

43:32

a rigorous empirical analysis. Despite

43:34

this though, Sorette suggested that back in 2016,

43:36

when he was interviewed, that based

43:40

on those patterns, one

43:42

could predict that the crime wave

43:44

related to the slashings had nearly reached

43:47

its conclusion by the spring of

43:49

2016. Yeah. He's like, thank

43:51

you for coming to me and asking me about this. And

43:53

it's almost over. Right. According

43:55

to patterns, we're almost out of it. So

43:58

Raymond Sorette is really one of the only

44:00

researchers to objectively measure prevalence

44:02

of copycat crimes by interviewing

44:04

convicted criminals. He put his

44:07

money where his mouth was. And

44:09

his work was published in an

44:12

article titled Measuring Copycat Crime in

44:15

the Publication Crime Media Culture

44:17

and International Journal. He devised

44:19

his methodology to systematically assess

44:21

crimes suspected of being copycat

44:23

incidents by measuring them along

44:26

a scale from unsubstantiated to

44:28

substantiated. And this approach

44:30

utilized seven factors to differentiate and

44:32

score a selection sample of 51

44:35

potential copycat crimes linked

44:37

to commercial entertainment films. So

44:39

his was very specific in

44:41

them being inspired by films.

44:43

Sorette set out by surveying

44:45

a whopping 574 incarcerated individuals

44:47

about their involvement in

44:50

criminal activities. And the sample

44:53

consisted of roughly equal portions

44:55

of white and black respondents, each about

44:57

close to 40% of the makeup of

44:59

the population with 15% identifying

45:01

as Latino. Three quarters

45:03

of the sample were male and approximately one

45:06

third were under the age of 27.

45:08

A significant portion of

45:10

the sample had extensive criminal histories

45:12

with over five prior arrests and

45:14

only 8% were incarcerated

45:17

for their very first offense.

45:19

Professor Sorette also inquired about

45:21

the participants exposure to real

45:23

world crime through their neighborhoods,

45:25

social circles, and family members, as

45:28

well as their consumption of crime

45:30

related media. So even

45:32

though his aim was very narrow

45:35

and specific, he was really touching on a

45:37

lot of things that we've woven into this

45:40

episode today. Absolutely. One

45:42

of the stats that emerges in all this

45:45

research is that 22% of the

45:47

inmates evaluated or interviewed

45:49

admitted to engaging in copycat crimes

45:51

with one in five of those

45:53

offenses being violent. Men were

45:56

more inclined than women to replicate someone else's

45:58

crime, particularly early in the day. their criminal

46:00

trajectories. And about 20% of

46:03

the inmates viewed media as a useful

46:05

tool for learning criminal techniques. Hmm. Who

46:08

would have thought with one in six

46:10

of them reporting that they were attracted

46:12

to crime related narratives. Very

46:15

much my experience working in the California

46:17

prison system. I would walk through the

46:19

day room where they were watching whatever

46:22

the local channel was that played cops

46:24

back to back. Like literally six

46:27

hours of cops. I would go guys,

46:29

why are you watching this? Dr. Scott,

46:32

those is what we know. This is

46:34

like, this is funny. Like he shouldn't

46:36

have done that. I wouldn't have hit

46:38

that, hit under that pool. Making fun

46:40

of the idiots on there. Yeah, exactly.

46:42

While you're sitting locked up. Exactly. It's

46:44

very interesting stats because these individuals are

46:47

significantly more likely to have committed copycat

46:49

crimes in the past. So among repeat

46:51

offenders, crime related media was most

46:53

likely to influence or teach individuals

46:55

ways to improve their criminal methods.

46:57

So again, let me emphasize that

47:00

among repeat offenders, crime related

47:02

media was most likely to

47:04

influence or teach individuals ways

47:06

to improve their criminal methods.

47:09

Yeah. It's really interesting in Surrett's

47:11

paper. He has an appendix and

47:13

there's a chart in there where

47:16

he lists films that seem

47:18

to have inspired killings by some

47:20

offenders, some and

47:22

crimes that our audience would absolutely

47:24

recognize. And I think it's

47:27

kind of more of a list that he

47:29

used as a guide in interviewing some of

47:31

these convicted offenders. Like for instance, the very

47:33

first film listed on there is the most

47:36

dangerous game from 1932, which stars

47:39

Joel McCray and Faye Ray.

47:41

And it's really good. Like you don't think, oh,

47:43

maybe from 1932, you guys, it is really good.

47:45

And it sometimes comes up as, as a selection,

47:47

you know, because TCM rotates their movies. If you

47:50

ever had a chance to watch this, you should,

47:52

or maybe we could do a watch party for

47:54

it. That would be good. Yeah. I

47:56

was looking on IMDB because I was watching the

47:58

trailer on there. And it looks

48:00

like it's kind of obscure where to get it,

48:02

but yeah, we'll keep an eye out for it.

48:05

But basically the description of this film

48:08

is a psychotic big game hunter deliberately

48:10

strands a luxury yacht on a remote

48:12

island where he begins to hunt its

48:15

passengers for sport. So

48:17

that has been a theme in I

48:19

think, you know, a few other films

48:21

as well, but people have always linked

48:24

this with Robert Hanson, the serial killer

48:26

in Alaska, right? That would kidnap sex

48:28

workers, fly them out to remote locations

48:30

before hunting them, basically like big game

48:32

animals. But I'll put a link

48:35

to that chart. I have a abbreviated version of

48:37

his paper that has just the abstract and that

48:39

chart kind of interesting to look at because he

48:41

lists the movies and then he lists

48:43

the year that they came out and then

48:45

the year that there was a

48:47

crime or high profile crime associated with it.

48:50

Yeah, that's just tragic, especially. And

48:53

so poignant with here with

48:55

the last episode of True Detective season

48:58

four coming out, which was so

49:00

good. I don't care if you

49:02

liked it or not. I loved it. I

49:05

thought it was great. I'm not talking about

49:07

you. I'm talking about any of our listeners.

49:09

I thought it was wonderful, but just a

49:11

sad and also there, there's another case present

49:13

right now where a South African man in

49:15

Alaska that's in targeting native

49:17

women. And it's just as horrific as

49:20

the Hanson murders. So

49:22

going back to criminologist, Soret and his research,

49:24

he also found that for some of his

49:26

interviewees, their mimicking behavior was

49:29

not just inspired by the films.

49:31

He also found that they were

49:33

more likely to imitate the criminal

49:35

behavior of individuals in their real

49:37

world social networks, such as

49:39

friends and relatives. It's like, it's like quilting

49:41

basically. Like I really love that pattern you're

49:43

doing. I'm going to try that. What

49:46

you're crocheting granny squares. I'm going to do that.

49:49

I mean, our close social

49:51

networks are influential, right? and

50:00

then just stabbed Johnny in one motion.

50:02

Or how it feels to be shot.

50:04

I was immediately hit by a barrage

50:06

of bullets. Or how you would react

50:08

if your spouse hired someone to kill

50:11

you. And he was to put me

50:13

in a grave with a bullet wound

50:15

on my head. These are the stories

50:17

you'll hear on the podcast called What

50:19

Was That Like? True stories told by

50:22

the actual person who went through it.

50:24

You'll hear from a stalking victim. Came back upstairs,

50:27

and when I came back and turned the corner

50:29

to everyone I saw standing there. You'll hear

50:31

from a man who was kidnapped and

50:33

tortured. I would do anything,

50:36

say anything, to simply get

50:38

away. And you'll hear actual

50:40

911 calls. Take

50:42

a deep breath. Oh my god! Take a

50:44

deep breath. Oh my god! Take a deep

50:46

breath. Oh my god! Real people in unreal

50:49

situations. Search for What

50:51

Was That Like? on any podcast

50:53

app or at whatwasthatlike.com. Welcome

51:00

to the I Can't Sleep podcast

51:02

with Benjamin Boster. If

51:06

you're tired of sleepless nights, you'll

51:09

love the I Can't Sleep podcast. I

51:14

help quiet your mind by reading random articles

51:16

from across the web to bore you to

51:18

sleep with my soothing voice. Each

51:23

episode provides enough interesting content to

51:25

hold your attention. And

51:28

then your mind lets you drift off. Find

51:34

it wherever you get your podcasts. That's

51:38

I Can't Sleep with Benjamin

51:40

Boster. Hi,

51:49

folks. Dr. Shiloh and Dr. Scott

51:51

here. If you are a fan

51:53

of LA Not So Confidential, we

51:56

know you're going to love the

51:58

podcast Conspiratuality, a podcast that's... dismantling

52:00

new age cults, wellness grifters

52:02

and conspiracy mad yogi. Wow,

52:05

right up my alley. You know

52:07

the spread of misinformation has fueled

52:09

a worldwide cultural divide as well

52:11

as spiking our collective anxiety about

52:13

the future. Tackling misinformation head on

52:15

is not a simple task but

52:17

we all know it's very important

52:19

and let me tell you, conspiratuality

52:21

is an excellent place to start.

52:23

Your hosts, a journalist, a cult

52:25

researcher and a philosophical skeptic

52:28

discuss the stories and cult dynamics that

52:30

are driving the yoga, wellness and new

52:32

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52:34

get legit research and some creative answers

52:37

to address these problems. Answers

52:39

backed up by science. I mean I

52:41

love all the shows but so far

52:43

the interview with the brilliant MAGA troll

52:45

Jordan Klepper has been my favorite. Wonderful

52:48

great insight and humor about his

52:50

experiences dealing with some interesting

52:53

world views in the ultra right

52:55

ballad-a-sphere. I really think this is

52:58

going to be my new favorite podcast

53:00

and today I listen to the episode

53:02

Tulsi Gabbard's Krishna Consciousness and just wow

53:05

I don't even know what to say.

53:07

Super eye-opening and they even speak with

53:10

a survivor of a similar Harid Krishna

53:12

sect. Not to mention he's an expert

53:14

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53:16

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53:19

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53:21

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53:27

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fear tactics. Find Conspiritaality on

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Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever

53:36

you get your podcasts. So

53:43

see this is really actually fascinating for

53:45

me because you

53:48

know there's a lot of conspiracies

53:50

out there that float around about government

53:52

propaganda or government manipulations and

53:54

you know most of them are garbage and then

53:56

some of them actually have a kernel of truth

53:59

and one of the ones, it's very controversial

54:01

out there, is this underground

54:03

handbook that was produced, I think back

54:05

in the sixties called the anarchist cookbook.

54:07

Are you familiar with this? Oh, of

54:10

course. Okay. So the anarchist cookbook was

54:12

something that you could find, you know,

54:14

in photocopied versions or

54:16

like, I guess you could maybe sometimes

54:19

get it through mail order or maybe

54:21

find an old bookstores and

54:23

it was like badly written with spelling

54:25

errors and all sorts of stuff, but

54:27

it was recipes for bombs and IEDs

54:29

and all sorts of stuff to use

54:31

in terrorist activities, but

54:33

most of the instructions would result

54:35

in you blowing yourself up. So

54:38

there was a lot of conjecture that that

54:40

was actually a government plant to get out

54:43

into the community so that people making these

54:45

plans would end up telling themselves now,

54:47

who knows if that's true or not, but you

54:50

know, if it sounds like we were kind of

54:52

implying here that like, Hmm, let's

54:54

just start shifting things in the true

54:56

crime community to give them, Oh

54:58

yeah. If you use white vinegar in

55:01

a spray bottle, that'll get rid of all the blood.

55:04

Right. This is the second time we've talked

55:06

about white vinegar in a spray bottle together

55:08

this week. Exactly. You and I were talking

55:10

with one of our law enforcement partners about

55:12

the chemtrail people that believe they can dispel

55:15

the chemtrails by going on their porch with

55:17

a white vinegar and water solution, spraying it

55:19

at the sky. You never

55:21

know. Is that in the cookbook? I don't know.

55:23

Not sure. Who can say. So

55:26

as we tend to conclude with

55:28

many of our episodes on these

55:30

more obscure topics, more research is

55:32

desperately needed. Further areas

55:35

of research can certainly assist

55:37

in methodologies for investigations into

55:39

trends in copycat crime, the

55:41

relationship between media content and

55:43

the copycat behavior, the influence

55:45

of social media on copycat

55:48

crimes, and perhaps even typologies

55:50

of copycat crimes. So once

55:52

again, here's a platter full of

55:55

dissertation topics for anyone out there.

55:57

These would all just be wonderful

55:59

contributions. to the field. Overall,

56:01

what little data there is indicates

56:04

that the majority of individuals convicted

56:06

of copycat murders already

56:09

exhibited a propensity for violence

56:11

or showed signs of mental instability

56:13

prior to their lethal actions. And

56:16

in this context, crime-related media coverage

56:18

can be seen as more of a

56:22

guide than a catalyst offering

56:24

direction to already troubled

56:26

individuals who were on

56:28

that path towards violent behavior. So should

56:30

we shift and look a little deeper

56:33

at a couple of criminal cases? Yeah,

56:35

let's do. It's funny because the way you opened that

56:37

last paragraph, it was like, okay, we're wrapping up the

56:39

episode. It's like, no, we have a couple more criminal

56:42

cases. Just the research part. Yeah, that was just the

56:44

research part, folks. Yes. So

56:46

let's look at an example where

56:48

a killer was directly influenced by

56:51

a notorious serial killer. During

56:53

the 1990s, New York City was

56:55

engulfed in fear as a serial

56:57

killer roamed the streets, striking seemingly

56:59

at random in the early morning

57:01

hours. The city's panic intensified

57:03

when the killer claimed to be the

57:06

infamous Zodiac Killer who had

57:08

terrorized Northern California two decades

57:11

prior, as reported by the New

57:13

York Times. However, in 1996,

57:16

the truth was unveiled. El Roberto

57:18

Eddie Serra was the copycat killer

57:20

responsible for eight attacks resulting in

57:22

the deaths of three individuals, according

57:24

to the Buffalo News. Like

57:27

his predecessor, Seda sent cryptic

57:29

message to law enforcement and

57:31

media outlets and left

57:33

enigmatic notes at crime scenes adorned

57:35

with a peculiar symbol adapted from

57:37

the West Coast Killer's design. So

57:40

the original Zodiac Killer, who was active between 1968

57:42

and 1969 in Northern California, was

57:46

alleged to have perpetrated at least five

57:49

murders and attempted to kill at least

57:51

two others. And he was widely or

57:53

she was widely covered in the media.

57:56

So Eddie Seda was drawn to the

57:58

sensationalism surrounding this unsolved. case after

58:01

he encountered this story through a PBS

58:03

special. In a 2004 interview,

58:05

Seda expressed his desire for notoriety

58:08

and he stated, I could

58:10

be famous. I could do that. So

58:13

employing tactics reminiscent of the Zodiac

58:15

Killer, Seda utilized cryptic symbols and

58:17

coded messages and he employed firearms

58:19

and bladed weapons in order to

58:21

carry out his crimes. Seda,

58:24

however, expanded upon the Zodiac

58:26

Killer's methodology by incorporating astrological

58:29

signs into his agenda. And

58:32

then in a letter to authorities

58:34

in 1989, preceding his killing spree,

58:36

Seda declared his intention to claim

58:38

one victim representing each of the

58:40

12 Zodiac signs. Most

58:43

of the victims possessed distinctive birth

58:45

signs and one survivor recalled being

58:47

questioned about his birthday by a

58:49

stranger. In

58:52

1990, Eddy Seda, a 23-year-old unemployed

58:54

resident of East New York, Brooklyn

58:56

embarked on his reign of terror,

58:59

living with his family while nurturing

59:01

aspirations of becoming a Green Beret.

59:04

Despite his abstinence from such vices

59:06

as alcohol, tobacco, and drugs, Seda

59:09

harbored obsessions with the Bible, magic,

59:11

and crafting homemade firearms as detailed

59:13

in the book, Sleep My

59:16

Little Dead, The True Story of the

59:18

Zodiac Killer by Kieran Crowley. Between

59:20

March 1990 and October 1993, Seda

59:23

instilled fear in New Yorkers and

59:25

evaded law enforcement during one of the

59:27

city's largest manhunts. His

59:29

initial victim, a 78-year-old man from

59:31

Queens, succumbed to gunshot wounds inflicted

59:34

by Seda in May 1990. And

59:38

two years later, in August 1992,

59:40

Seda perpetrated another murder, stabbing his

59:42

victim over a hundred times. So

59:45

the symbol employed by Seda bore

59:47

a striking resemblance to that of

59:49

the original Zodiac Killer, which featured

59:51

an inverted cross inside a circle

59:53

with a number seven prominently displayed.

59:55

So today, even with the decoding

59:58

or the alleged decoding of of

1:00:00

the Zodiac Killer's messages, the

1:00:02

significance of that cipher remains

1:00:05

elusive. And similarly, Seda conveyed

1:00:07

encoded messages to the media

1:00:09

with journalist Kieran Crowley and

1:00:11

his father-in-law successfully deciphering Seda's

1:00:13

messages in 1994, containing

1:00:16

the ominous warning, be ready for

1:00:18

more. Now, in a dramatic turn

1:00:20

of events that mirrored the original

1:00:23

Zodiac Killer story, New

1:00:25

York police nearly apprehended Eddie in

1:00:27

1994, but legal

1:00:29

proceedings against him were halted before his

1:00:32

fingerprints could be analyzed. And this echoes

1:00:34

the San Francisco police department's failure to

1:00:36

apprehend the Zodiac Killer in 1969 due

1:00:40

to racial biases. Yeah,

1:00:42

certainly. It's weird

1:00:44

how that did replicate a bit. Yeah.

1:00:47

Detective Joseph Herbert cracked the case in June

1:00:49

1996 by recognizing Seda's

1:00:52

handwriting and a distinctive symbol from

1:00:54

the Zodiac Killer's communication. With

1:00:56

Detective Herbert's tight investigation and

1:00:58

organization of evidence, Seda

1:01:01

confessed and was convicted of multiple counts

1:01:03

of murder and attempted murder in 1998,

1:01:06

receiving a sentence of 232 years imprisonment. He's

1:01:11

currently incarcerated in the Clinton Correctional

1:01:14

Facility, and Seda remains a

1:01:16

controversial figure, marrying a fellow

1:01:18

inmate and maintaining a

1:01:20

low profile as documented by

1:01:22

New York Magazine and like

1:01:25

totally attractive guy. Well,

1:01:28

I'm actually kind of, I mean, it's so funny because I

1:01:31

thought about it. I mean, I don't know why I'm commenting

1:01:33

on that, but I was surprised. I was like, oh, he's

1:01:35

good looking. That's an

1:01:37

interesting point, Dr. Shiloh, because I

1:01:39

was biting my tongue, like

1:01:41

to not say that, because the guy actually

1:01:43

is good looking. But he does

1:01:46

have like that blank thousand yard stare. There's

1:01:48

clearly something going on, but like I was

1:01:50

kind of taken aback when we were doing

1:01:52

the research and like all the images come

1:01:54

up and I was like, oh God, it's

1:01:56

very interesting though, because after all of this,

1:01:58

and he's been interviewed multiple times. He's you

1:02:00

know been featured on so many of the true crime

1:02:02

shows. He rejects the label

1:02:05

of copycat Yeah

1:02:09

So is that interesting like no, I'm

1:02:11

not copying anybody So

1:02:13

or I'm inspired by but that's not

1:02:15

the same thing as a copycat or

1:02:17

however. He's justifying. It's very interesting Yeah,

1:02:20

almost like I was continuing

1:02:22

the legacy, but I'm not a copycat.

1:02:24

I don't know What was

1:02:26

that TV show that was out a few

1:02:28

years ago remember there was one where the

1:02:31

the killer was imprisoned and

1:02:35

For a while you couldn't tell if

1:02:37

there were copycat criminals carrying on or

1:02:40

if he had acolytes There

1:02:42

he had followers that were out in the

1:02:44

community that were gonna continue killing for the

1:02:46

same reasons. He did well season

1:02:49

oh Yeah, I'm not sure

1:02:51

I do touch on something very similar when we get to

1:02:54

our entertainment part, but okay I

1:02:56

also wanted to mention a very twisted attempted

1:02:59

copycat crime that was perpetrated

1:03:01

by the original killer and

1:03:04

his girlfriend, so Just

1:03:06

as a quick review the hillside strangler case

1:03:08

involved a series of murders committed by cousins

1:03:11

Kenneth Bianchi and Angelo

1:03:13

Buono in the hills of Los Angeles in

1:03:15

the late 1970s and the victims

1:03:17

mostly young women were sexually assaulted and

1:03:19

strangled and This case

1:03:22

really gained I mean significant media

1:03:24

attention and ended with the arrest

1:03:26

and conviction of both perpetrators but

1:03:28

in 1980

1:03:31

just a year after his arrest for these

1:03:33

horrific crimes Kenneth Bianchi began a relationship with

1:03:35

a woman named Veronica Compton and she

1:03:39

had initially written him a letter stating

1:03:41

that she wanted to interview him as

1:03:44

Research for her script about a

1:03:46

female serial killer and of course

1:03:48

this blossomed into a full-on romantic

1:03:50

relationship She even testified

1:03:53

for the defense At

1:03:55

his trial and while

1:03:57

he was incarcerated Bianchi smuggled a

1:03:59

semen-filled condom to Veronica in the

1:04:01

spine of a book. And

1:04:04

they had concocted a plan to use it

1:04:06

to make it look like the real hillside

1:04:08

strangler was still on the loose and

1:04:11

that Bianchi was wrongfully imprisoned because

1:04:13

it's before DNA. So obviously they

1:04:15

would be like, Oh, this is

1:04:17

matching DNA, but it's not like

1:04:19

they could link it back to him. So they'd

1:04:21

be able to like match the blood type, but

1:04:23

not necessarily have the DNA. Yeah. Like the accreter

1:04:25

or non-secreter or whatever. So get

1:04:27

this, she's later convicted and imprisoned for

1:04:31

this plot and attempting to

1:04:33

strangle a woman that she had fully

1:04:35

lured to a motel in

1:04:38

an attempt to have authorities

1:04:40

discover all this and say

1:04:42

that he's wrongfully imprisoned. Yeah.

1:04:45

Totally followed through with it. Thank God

1:04:47

this woman survived. So yeah, Veronica

1:04:49

was convicted of this and she

1:04:51

was released about 20 years ago

1:04:53

in 2003 for her part, but

1:04:56

crazy, right? Like a real killer

1:04:58

trying to make a copycat killer.

1:05:00

All right. So turning to entertainment,

1:05:02

we have two examples here for

1:05:04

you. I mean, we

1:05:06

have to go with 1995 movie titled

1:05:10

copycat. I watched it

1:05:12

again last night. I'm on call. I remember seeing it.

1:05:14

Well now I have to go watch it. It's

1:05:16

so good. Because I love everybody in

1:05:19

it. Everyone in it is so good. It's the Gorny Weaver,

1:05:21

Harry Connick Jr., Holly Hunter.

1:05:23

There's some other great people in

1:05:25

it too. I just, Holly

1:05:28

Hunter, like every time I see her in

1:05:30

something, especially something older, I'm like, I could

1:05:32

not love her more. So essentially Sigourney

1:05:37

Weaver is this criminal

1:05:39

psychologist, forensic psychologist, and

1:05:42

she ends up getting attacked at the

1:05:44

beginning of the film and

1:05:47

becomes an agoraphobic due to this attack.

1:05:50

So she doesn't leave her home, but

1:05:52

then there's a serial killer in San

1:05:54

Francisco that's targeting

1:05:57

women and copying famous

1:05:59

crimes. including the

1:06:01

Hillside Stranglers, the Boston Strangler,

1:06:04

Dahmer, and Holly Hunter

1:06:06

is the San Francisco Homicide Detective that

1:06:08

then gets her to kind of help

1:06:11

them hunt down this killer.

1:06:14

But this

1:06:16

film is very good, but it also gave me a completely

1:06:19

irrational, I won't

1:06:22

say phobia, I'll say uneasiness about being alone in

1:06:24

a public bathroom that still sticks with me to

1:06:26

this day. Wow. So you

1:06:28

watched it when it first came out? Yes.

1:06:31

I was probably 1996, I

1:06:34

was like 16, 17.

1:06:36

But yeah, ever since then, I get

1:06:39

a little bit of the heebie jeebies when I walk into a

1:06:41

public restroom and I'm the only one in there. Wow,

1:06:43

you've really got me thinking now. I'm trying

1:06:45

to think if there's anything that has affected

1:06:47

me in the long term like that. I

1:06:49

mean, yeah, that's a job

1:06:51

to think about that. Very good. Worth the

1:06:53

watch. Still holds up, I will say. I'm going to

1:06:55

go look for that. So Law &

1:06:57

Order SVU, season 9, episode 6, entitled,

1:07:00

Sengali. And this is basically a

1:07:02

spin on the Bianchi event where

1:07:05

Detective Benson comes under fire from

1:07:07

fans of the convicted serial killer

1:07:10

who also happens to be a prominent comic

1:07:12

book author. And this

1:07:14

is after a body turns up that greatly

1:07:16

resembles his work. It's very interesting that that

1:07:19

one, because there's a prominent brutal

1:07:21

murder that happened of a young woman

1:07:23

here in Hollywood several years ago where

1:07:25

the killer was a self-published comic book

1:07:27

author from a rich family. People talked

1:07:30

about it in the media. It's like,

1:07:32

oh, he was a successful

1:07:34

graphic novelist that focused on dark

1:07:36

issues. It's

1:07:38

like, no, he wasn't successful. He

1:07:40

self-published something that was widely

1:07:43

reviled, but he himself was a

1:07:45

bit of a copycat. But we

1:07:47

also have, I did find another

1:07:49

example. There was a series, lasted

1:07:51

two seasons, called The Followers and

1:07:54

starred Kevin Bacon as a detective

1:07:56

and James Purifoy, really, really

1:07:58

great actors, both of them. as

1:08:00

the prisoner and this is a

1:08:02

brilliant charismatic and psychotic serial killer

1:08:05

who communicates with other active serial

1:08:07

killers and activates a cult of

1:08:09

believers who follow his every command.

1:08:12

That is quote from IMDB and it's

1:08:14

still streaming on a couple of different

1:08:16

platforms. It was pretty good. Kevin Bacon

1:08:19

is always good. He is so good.

1:08:21

So guys, thank you so much for

1:08:23

another long and research heavy episode. Again,

1:08:25

just as we started at the beginning,

1:08:27

please if you can join us at

1:08:30

CrimeCon or join us virtually

1:08:32

because we'll have our Instagram up and we'll

1:08:34

be leading listeners through. You know, if you're

1:08:36

up late or up early, you can join

1:08:38

us that way. We have our handheld microphone.

1:08:40

I know you got the fancy microphone. It's

1:08:43

very exciting. We also have an

1:08:46

upcoming live stream with

1:08:48

podcast host Steve Cubine

1:08:51

from the podcast entitled From Beneath the

1:08:53

Hollywood Sign and he's going to discuss

1:08:55

with us even more information on the

1:08:57

death of Johnny Stompinato from our previous

1:09:00

episode. I also have to

1:09:02

just be completely forward. Steve is a

1:09:04

good friend who is

1:09:06

the husband of someone that I literally

1:09:09

have known for decades.

1:09:11

We did community theater, not

1:09:14

community theater. We had professional, semi-professional theater back

1:09:16

in our college days. Steve

1:09:18

has the most amazing Hollywood

1:09:20

stories. So I'm hoping that

1:09:23

he will also share with

1:09:25

us some of the

1:09:27

crazy ass things that have happened

1:09:29

at autograph signings. For those of

1:09:31

you that aren't familiar, autograph signing

1:09:33

conventions are a really big and

1:09:35

successful way for people that are maybe

1:09:37

not so much in the limelight anymore that

1:09:39

have a cult following to generate some income.

1:09:42

Steve has some stories about that. It's great. Yes. Do

1:09:44

we have a date for that yet? We're

1:09:48

tying it down to two days. So we'll get

1:09:50

out with that very quick. Cool. And of

1:09:52

course, on that note, we have our

1:09:54

watch party happening Saturday, March 9th, 2024.

1:09:57

We'll be watching the score. at

1:10:00

Noir Thriller, The Postman Always Rings

1:10:02

Twice with Lana Turner. So please

1:10:05

join us. It'll be lots of fun. All

1:10:07

the instructions are, I'll put them in the

1:10:09

show notes, a link as well, but they're

1:10:12

always on our live

1:10:14

events page on our website. All right,

1:10:16

everyone. Thank you so much. We'll see

1:10:18

you at some fun upcoming things and

1:10:21

more planned. Hopefully, we would actually love

1:10:23

to get an in-person just meet up

1:10:26

this summer in LA. So

1:10:29

stay tuned as we kind of see

1:10:31

what we have planned for the rest

1:10:33

of 2024. But on that

1:10:35

note, we will see you next time on LA.

1:10:38

Not so. Confidential. Thanks,

1:10:40

guys. Bye, folks. We

1:10:59

sincerely thank you for spending some time with

1:11:01

us today. LA Not So Confidential is part

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