0:00

This is the BBC. This

0:03

podcast is supported by advertising

0:05

outside the UK.

0:07

BELL RINGS

0:10

Parenting is an epic journey

0:13

of highs... CHILD LAUGHS ..and

0:17

lows.

0:18

CHILD CRIES Therapy

0:20

can help you navigate it all and take care

0:22

of yourself so you can be the best parent

0:24

possible. And BetterHelp makes it

0:26

easy. Complete a brief questionnaire,

0:29

match with a licensed therapist and switch

0:31

therapists any time for no additional charge. 100% online

0:35

and designed for maximum flexibility. Get

0:37

started at betterhelp.com

0:39

forward slash parenthood for 10% off

0:42

the first month.

0:43

If you're listening to this podcast, you must

0:46

recognise the value of asking questions.

0:48

At Aramco, our questions help us engineer

0:51

a better future. How can today's

0:53

resources fuel our shared tomorrow?

0:56

How can we deliver energy to a world

0:58

that can't stop? How can we deliver

1:00

one of the fuels of the future? How

1:03

can we sow curiosity to harvest

1:05

ingenuity?

1:06

To learn more about how innovation drives us

1:08

forward, visit aramco.com slash

1:11

poweredbyhow.

1:13

BELL RINGS

1:16

BBC Sounds,

1:19

music, radio, podcasts.

1:22

You're about to listen to Intrigue the

1:24

Immortals. Episodes will be released

1:27

weekly, but if you're in the UK, the full

1:29

series is available now, first

1:31

on BBC Sounds.

1:33

What if I told you that death

1:36

may not be inevitable?

1:39

Crazy idea, right? Well,

1:42

there is a kind of life cycle to some

1:44

crazy ideas. They start way

1:47

out there, but within a couple of decades, they

1:49

are so much part of the furniture

1:52

that we hardly even notice them. I'm

1:54

talking about technology ideas

1:57

solving problems that we didn't know

1:59

we had. Everyone

2:01

will have a computer in their pocket or on

2:04

their wrist. Remember how ridiculous

2:06

that once sounded only two decades ago.

2:09

Then, gifted scientists and upstart

2:11

entrepreneurs disrupted things, taking

2:14

huge risks, forcing massive change,

2:16

determined that nothing would stop

2:19

them. We were so beguiled

2:21

or befuddled that we hardly noticed

2:24

quite how pervasive the idea

2:26

and the technology was becoming.

2:29

Until, boom, it bumps

2:31

up against something big like friendship or

2:33

skills or democracy. And

2:36

suddenly, we see the unintended consequences

2:39

and the missed opportunities that we had

2:42

to influence or question the way

2:44

that idea and that technology

2:47

developed.

2:49

Well, there is

2:51

another really big idea

2:54

emerging now. The next big thing,

2:56

which you have probably never heard of. And

2:59

if you have, you've probably dismissed it

3:01

as bonkers. I first

3:03

noticed it back in 2003 when

3:05

it was fringe, even for the fringe. But

3:08

over those 20 years, it has come out

3:11

front and center for

3:13

an elite group of Silicon Valley

3:15

billionaires. They want

3:18

to live

3:19

forever. And

3:21

they know, not just think,

3:23

that technology will be the thing

3:26

that gets them there. It

3:29

will blow your mind. But

3:32

stick with me because we really

3:34

need to see

3:34

this one coming.

3:42

One of the first things people project is that I somehow have

3:45

a fear of death. That somehow is my driving force and I have no fear of

3:47

death whatsoever. I

3:51

deeply appreciate being alive every single

3:55

day. And I think that's a big

3:57

thing. And I

3:59

think that's a big thing. And so really it's wanting

4:01

to live a large number of

4:03

tomorrow's with everybody.

4:06

Brian Johnson's skin is uncanny.

4:09

It is the first thing that I notice about him on our Zoom

4:11

call. And although I know he's 45,

4:13

it is hard to place his age. He

4:16

could be anywhere between 18 and 60. I

4:20

also know that Brian is worth around $400

4:22

million, which

4:24

he earned as a tech entrepreneur and

4:26

selling up to PayPal in 2013.

4:28

After I sold my company, the

4:30

hypothesis was, is it

4:32

possible that a

4:35

fundamental existence that we've always had

4:37

as a species that we will all inevitably

4:39

die, is that still true?

4:43

Or is it the case that

4:45

the science has progressed to a certain degree

4:48

where it calls that certainty into

4:50

question?

4:51

Brian says that he currently spends $2 million

4:54

a year of his personal fortune

4:56

trying out anything science has ever

4:59

suggested, so he can live long

5:01

enough to live forever.

5:04

We are all familiar with the Fountain of Youth story.

5:07

You have people in a boat, going through a jungle,

5:10

traveling to a temple and drinking the magic

5:12

elixir. But I wondered, is

5:15

it here in tens of thousands of scientific

5:17

publications? Could I show something that's possible?

5:19

Would that change our

5:22

orientation to time, life, death?

5:27

I'm Alex Kritosky, a psychologist,

5:30

and I have been reporting on technology for 25 years.

5:33

I know that when the tech industry gets interested

5:36

in something, they will do anything

5:38

to make it happen. Right now,

5:40

some of their biggest names

5:41

are investing in immortality.

5:46

This is a story about what is called

5:48

longevity, extending

5:50

the healthy human lifespan by a decade

5:52

or more. It

5:55

starts with the science, and it ends with the technologies

5:57

that they claim will get rid of death.

6:00

entirely. Of course

6:02

it sounds crazy, impossible, but

6:04

we would be foolish not to look more closely.

6:07

After all, these are the people who have

6:10

already revolutionized our present.

6:12

Now, they're taking charge of our

6:15

future. Life expectancy

6:17

has doubled over the last 100

6:19

years.

6:21

Why can't it happen again? You're

6:24

listening to Intrigue from BBC Radio 4.

6:27

This is The Immortals, episode 1,

6:29

Dracula.

6:32

After a little while, the uncanniness of

6:34

Brian begins to fade, and he starts

6:36

to remind me of some of my tech geek friends.

6:39

He is, like so many of them, quick

6:42

and funny

6:43

and obsessive. As a team,

6:45

we have

6:47

ranked and prioritized

6:50

every lifespan and health span study

6:52

out there. And so we

6:54

have an orientation on what

6:56

therapies offer what potential benefits,

6:59

what potential side effect profile, whether it's an

7:01

animal model, a human model. And then we've worked

7:03

through those things systematically in knocking

7:06

out the protocols. So

7:08

for example, caloric restriction is

7:10

something I practice.

7:11

And he tries it all, not

7:14

just caloric restriction, dramatically

7:16

restricting what and how much he eats.

7:19

All the rage was Silicon Valley CEOs.

7:21

He also uses an algorithm to

7:24

constantly tweak his strict exercise

7:27

regime and to take supplements and

7:29

repurpose medicines.

7:30

And then there are the truly radical

7:33

therapies. The one that's caught my attention

7:36

is about being injected with the

7:38

blood plasma of the young.

7:42

I'm wondering if you could recall from me the

7:44

moment that you first heard about plasma

7:46

transfusion and its potential

7:49

effects on the body.

7:50

In terms of plasma,

7:53

we thought it was interesting, not because

7:56

of the overwhelming compelling evidence, but because

7:59

of the unprecedented because of the potential benefits.

8:02

So I started doing it myself

8:04

to explore this.

8:05

There's one thing to be presented with

8:08

caloric restriction or many

8:10

of the other longevity associated

8:13

treatments. And then there's another thing

8:15

to say, I'm going to inject

8:18

young plasma

8:19

into my body. You know, there's sort

8:21

of shades of vampirism.

8:24

So I realized that some people really gotten some good

8:27

click headlines out of this, of vampire,

8:29

vampirism and all that kind of stuff. But

8:32

I'd say the people who really

8:34

listened and saw the story connected

8:36

deeply with their own life experiences.

8:42

The treatment is extremely strange

8:44

and possibly dangerous, but, and

8:47

this is weird, also kind of romantic.

8:50

Fables and myths are full of characters

8:52

looking for answers to their mortality.

8:55

The list starts with Gilgamesh way

8:57

back when, Brian Johnson

8:59

wants to be the final name

9:01

on that list. I'm

9:03

currently trying to retell the

9:05

origin story of the human race.

9:08

So Brian Johnson wants some young

9:10

blood plasma to test the hypothesis

9:13

that it could give him extra years of healthy

9:15

life.

9:16

It's not difficult to find plasma.

9:19

It's a common treatment. The age

9:21

of the donor though, well, that's a little

9:23

more difficult, but it is possible. When

9:25

it comes to the quality, if

9:28

somebody's unhealthy and donates their plasma,

9:31

maybe that could have a bad effect on

9:33

age reversal.

9:34

It's unknown. And Brian Johnson

9:36

is trying to control every aspect of his treatment

9:39

from start to finish.

9:40

This means he needs a

9:43

blood boy.

9:44

I of course have the best intentions for my

9:46

son for his health and wellness, but I've

9:48

never paid as close attention

9:51

to what he's eating than prior

9:53

to this plasma exchange because that's going

9:55

into my body.

9:57

So he was a proxy for my

9:59

own.

9:59

existence. Yep,

10:02

you heard that right. Brian decided to

10:04

get a transfusion of blood plasma from

10:06

his 17-year-old son, Talmage.

10:09

I would love to have been a fly

10:12

on the wall when that idea was

10:14

brought up. It's

10:19

March of 2023. Father

10:21

and son make their way to one of the few

10:23

facilities that performs this procedure,

10:25

which sits on a suburban road

10:28

outside a major U.S. city across

10:30

the street from a bank and a pediatric

10:32

dentist. Talmage

10:34

had never had this done before. He's had his blood

10:37

drawn before, but it is entirely

10:39

different when you're hooked up to this machine

10:42

and it's a very involved procedure

10:44

from just a small poke.

10:46

You get a needle in your arm, as you would

10:48

if you were giving your blood, but the machine,

10:51

which is quite loud, separates the plasma

10:53

from the red blood cells. And then your

10:55

red blood cells are returned to your

10:57

body. It

10:58

takes a couple of hours. Talmage had

11:00

his one liter of plasma extracted first,

11:02

and there it was on display. So now

11:05

everyone in the room is sitting there

11:07

looking at Talmage's plasma and saying, like, well,

11:09

what do you think? Does it look healthy? Is

11:11

it, you know, like, and then my plasma comes out

11:13

and now you can compare Talmage's plasma

11:16

and mine. So it's like you have your innards

11:19

on display. To

11:20

receive the plasma, the bag is hung up

11:22

on one of those IV stands that you can wheel around

11:24

in the hospital if you have to go to the loo or

11:26

get a snack. And slowly,

11:28

over the course of a few hours, it

11:30

drips into Brian. But

11:34

wait, this isn't the end of

11:36

the story. There's another bag

11:39

on that stand. This one

11:42

is for Brian's dad.

11:44

You see, Brian wasn't just receiving

11:46

young plasma from a family member. He

11:49

was willing to give his own to one as

11:51

well. For science.

11:54

My father, who's now 70,

11:57

he called me one day and he said, Hey Brian, I just want you to

11:59

know that when you.

11:59

begin experiencing cognitive decline,

12:02

you don't know it. He said, I always imagined

12:05

I would feel myself slipping and say, you

12:07

know, I'm just not as sharp as I used to be. And so

12:09

you don't know, which makes sense. It's declined.

12:11

So therefore you have this blind spot to your own decline. I

12:14

said, you know, dad, there's one therapy

12:16

that we could explore doing. So there aren't

12:18

just two generations of the

12:20

clinic. There are three.

12:24

When I started the treatments, I

12:26

don't recognize an emotional

12:28

wrapper around it.

12:30

It was just a functional thing

12:32

we were accomplishing. With

12:34

my father and my son, it was

12:36

very different.

12:39

He's not feeling squeamish. He's

12:41

not worried about safety. He's

12:43

feeling something totally different. Yeah,

12:46

I remember when my plasma

12:49

was hung and started flowing

12:51

through my dad's veins, his eyes

12:54

lit up, his tears, he started crying

12:57

and it

12:58

was one of the most meaningful moments

13:01

of his entire life. And

13:03

the same is true with me where I had done

13:05

these plasma exchanges before from a

13:08

donor, but

13:10

never from my son. And so there

13:12

I was with my son's plasma

13:14

about to be infused in my veins and

13:18

internally contemplating. I never imagined

13:21

that my little baby

13:23

would grow up and

13:25

I'd be doing this procedure with him. Like

13:28

what a wild experience that we now share this intimacy

13:30

together.

13:32

Yeah, wild.

13:36

The technology entrepreneur mindset is startlingly

13:39

ambitious. I've seen it before. They

13:41

are willing to try crazy things and moonshot

13:44

ideas in the hope that they can solve really

13:46

big problems. But many scientists

13:49

and people who work in medicine think that the research

13:52

into age reversal or life extension

13:54

is experimental. They don't think that

13:56

there's a silver bullet that will give us

13:59

extra healthy decades.

13:59

and Brian's experiment

14:02

is extreme, but he has

14:04

deep pockets, and he's proven before

14:07

that he can spot an opportunity. What

14:09

if he and the other technology philanthropists are

14:11

right? What if

14:14

death as we know it is not an

14:16

inevitability?

14:18

We are baby steps away from creating

14:21

the most extraordinary event in

14:23

the entire galaxy, and it

14:26

happens to be in the very moment that you

14:28

and I are alive. I would not miss

14:31

admissions to this show for anything.

14:37

As I delved into this story, I

14:39

discovered that it's not the treatments that

14:41

get weirder, but the belief

14:43

in them.

14:44

This is a wonderland of science, and

14:47

as we will see, also technology,

14:50

artificial intelligence. Yes, AI

14:53

comes into this tale too, but I can guarantee

14:55

not in the way you might expect. There

14:57

are big thinkers imagining a long

15:00

future. There are prophets preaching

15:02

end times, and the odd con

15:05

man cashing in on our never-ending

15:07

appetite for the fountain

15:08

of youth. So where

15:10

did Brian Johnson get the idea

15:12

to take his son's blood plasma?

15:16

Next time on The Immortals, we find

15:18

out. Thanks

15:20

for listening to The Immortals. It was produced

15:22

and reported by me, Alex Kritosky, and

15:24

it was written by me and Joanna Humphreys.

15:27

Our sound designer was Peter Gregson, and

15:30

it was mixed by George Rigby. It

15:32

is a pillow fort productions production.

15:35

Hi, it's Amit Khatwala. And Charlotte

15:37

Stavrou here. We wanted to tell you that season

15:39

two of All-Consuming from BBC Radio 4

15:41

is here.

15:42

In this series, we'll be once again delving

15:44

into our culture of consumption by examining

15:46

the services and products that have changed

15:49

the world.

15:49

This time, we're looking at houseplants.

15:51

I fell in love with that madly. The idea of just turning

15:54

a plant into this giant analog synthesizer.

15:56

Running shoes. The beauty of it is you get

15:58

a chance to understand.

15:59

in performance at the highest

16:02

level. And tea. It's the connection

16:04

and the safety cues to your body

16:06

that it's over and you're safe. And

16:08

much more. So join us for the second

16:10

season of All Consuming, available on BBC

16:13

Sounds.