0:15

Pushkin. Welcome

0:21

to Judging Sam, the trial of Sam Bankman

0:23

Freed. I'm Michael Lewis. We're

0:25

recording this on Tuesday evening, Halloween,

0:28

October the thirty first, and we're finally

0:30

in the home stretch. The prosecution

0:32

finished their cross examination of Sam today and then

0:34

the defense followed up with a redirect and

0:37

then everybody rested. Tomorrow

0:39

we'll start closing arguments. Lydia

0:41

Jean, you waited outside the courthouse for nearly

0:43

seven hours last night. What

0:46

was that like?

0:48

Honestly, I feel embarrassed that I did

0:50

that, especially because there was no need

0:52

because people were arriving at six am and

0:55

able to get into the courthouse. Fine, but I got

0:57

scared from yesterday.

0:59

Well, the market turned right. It was so interesting

1:01

to hear people talk there this etiquette that nobody

1:04

divulged what time they got there because

1:07

the night the night before, because it

1:09

is going to cause people to get there even earlier the next

1:11

day. Yeah. I've been this creep to the point

1:13

where two days ago the first guy shows

1:15

up at like eleven o'clock at night.

1:17

Yeah, I feel like I've done every hour I've done

1:19

at this point, I've done two. I've done three, I've done

1:21

four. I always thought I've

1:23

never really considered part of

1:26

my day before.

1:27

So you got there, you said one in the morning to

1:29

fifteen. I think two fifteen. You got there to fifteen,

1:32

And how many people were ahead of you? Thirteen? But

1:36

at six in the morning you could still get a.

1:37

Spot in the cause twenty one people can usually

1:39

get in, and I think the twenty first person arrived

1:41

at like six thirty am.

1:43

So I was in the overflow room for the

1:45

first half of the day anyway, with people.

1:48

I was surrounded by people who'd foresworn in the

1:50

morning line, so that wasn't worth it

1:52

and they didn't care anymore. It round

1:55

sick. Yeah, this is no way to lead

1:57

a life. And there was all that kind of stuff going

2:00

on in the in the overflow room, but

2:02

there were I don't know eighty people there,

2:04

ninety people there, it was. There was a crowd

2:07

still, So give this a brief

2:09

summary of what happened today.

2:11

Yeah, So the prosecution finished

2:13

questioning Sam, and I'd say it

2:15

wasn't too different from yesterday where he

2:18

kept saying that he didn't remember things. Then

2:20

the defense did to redirect, and

2:23

then they rested, and then the prosecution decided

2:25

not to do a rebuttal.

2:27

And then what happened for the back end of the day.

2:30

Then there was it's called a charging

2:32

conference, which is when the

2:34

lawyers and the judge talked

2:37

about what instructions the jury

2:39

should get about each of about the charges, so

2:41

basically what they're supposed to consider when they're considering

2:44

Sam's case.

2:45

And did they finish with that?

2:47

They did, yes?

2:48

And what did they did you were you able to

2:50

hear what they were saying?

2:52

Basically, the judge

2:54

is going to read to the jury this sixty page

2:56

document that explains every

2:58

single charge and how

3:01

they need to think about that charge. And

3:03

they went through the sixty page document pretty

3:05

much line by line, and it was everything

3:08

from fixing typo was like talking about

3:10

like whether a sentence should be in the subjunctive

3:12

or not, which they actually did disagree about,

3:15

to more substantial

3:19

things as well.

3:20

So what did you sense was there were

3:22

the bones of contention between the

3:25

defense and either the judge or the prosecution.

3:28

It was pretty much what you would expect. For instance, the prosecution

3:30

wanted to have a clause that said

3:33

conscious avoidance, so basically the

3:35

idea of purposefully not knowing

3:37

something. If you're purposefully not knowing, it

3:40

doesn't make you not guilty of the thing like.

3:43

Skipping the meeting where you're talking about the

3:46

bug and how to fix the bug exactly.

3:48

And then the defense said that they

3:50

don't want conscious avoidance to

3:52

be one of the charges.

3:55

Gotcha, What did you make

3:57

of Sam on the stand? Did he seem

3:59

that he had shifted his strategy at all? No?

4:02

I think it was still it was just a

4:04

daze of I don't remember, I don't remember, I

4:07

don't remember.

4:08

Yeah, I ever seen anybody not remember so

4:10

many memorable things?

4:12

Well, yeah, well that's because he had so much more to lose

4:14

by remembering, you know what I mean, Like nothing

4:17

that he would remember could actually help

4:19

him that much, and things that he

4:21

said could actually hurt him.

4:23

So probably his lawyer said it was a safer

4:25

strategy to just say he doesn't remember, because

4:28

that way he can't get caught for lying on the

4:30

stand, which could add extra time.

4:33

Yeah, that part of it was kind of unsatisfying.

4:36

I thought that what did you think of the redirect?

4:38

The redirect to me is very satisfying

4:40

because he finally will talk and

4:43

sort of explain stuff, and a lot

4:45

of what you know, and a lot of what he's explaining makes

4:47

sense. The frustration with the courtroom

4:49

is neither side is actually operating in the spirit

4:51

of honesty. They're both trying to make a

4:53

case and so taking stuff out of context

4:56

and blowing stuff up and making it mean

4:58

something different than it actually meant back when it

5:00

was happening, and it was I find it

5:02

kind of a relief to

5:05

let him go a little bit,

5:07

let him explain. Judging

5:09

Sam will be right back. Welcome

5:17

back to Judging Sam. The trial

5:20

of Sam Bangman freed.

5:21

You told me at lunch that you learned I think you said you learned

5:23

two things today.

5:24

Right, We're now at the end of the testimony,

5:27

and I have a long list of things that I'm surprised

5:29

I didn't learn more about. You

5:31

know, I thought the trial was going to clear some stuff up

5:33

for me that it did that. It just didn't

5:36

today. You know, one thing that was

5:38

interesting to me. They gave us a glimpse of

5:41

a memo that Caroline had written to Sam.

5:43

And most of the random stuff was very very

5:46

positive stuff like oh, we made ten billion dollars

5:48

this quarter or on FTT or whatever it was.

5:50

But they had. It was. It was the moment they

5:53

took the loss for what

5:56

was essentially a theft of the exchange. It

5:58

was a gaming of the risk engine using

6:01

a couple of obscure crypto tokens.

6:04

I thought the loss from that

6:08

episode was six million, and she listed

6:10

it at eight hundred and fifty million, and that

6:12

was you know, I've been humbering for. There's still

6:14

money that's not accounted for. If you listen to

6:16

the prosecution case from the point of view of a jury

6:18

who's sort of like only half paying attention,

6:21

you might come away with the belief that, oh,

6:23

Sam Bankman Freed stole

6:27

eleven billion dollars in customer money and

6:29

spent it all. Kept

6:31

using that term who you spent it? You spent it, You

6:33

spent Yes, you spent very

6:35

little of it. Most of it is either there

6:38

or invested in things that actually

6:41

have some value, some of some things that have some

6:43

great value.

6:44

Because you know, in the judge's eyes, right, it's

6:46

like if you stole money and then you win

6:48

the lottery, you're luckily found it. It doesn't really

6:50

impact that you stole the money.

6:53

Yeah, but that's not what happened here. The bankruptcy.

6:56

People have collected seven point three

6:58

billion dollars of liquid assets

7:00

that seem to have been stuffed

7:02

in various exchanges and bank accounts.

7:05

And there was a bunch of liquid assets still on hand

7:07

when they collapsed, and he

7:09

made a big bunch of venture capital investments.

7:12

And so I was surprised I didn't find

7:14

its way in. They still the opportunity to call

7:16

witnesses, for example, in the rebuttal, I didn't know who

7:18

to recall.

7:19

Yeah, and they said they were going to call some yesterday.

7:21

There were four or five characters. Five characters

7:24

from the book got principal characters

7:26

in the book. And in particular, I

7:29

thought, you know,

7:31

Ramnick Aurora was basically

7:33

on a plane to come here. He thought he was on he

7:35

thought he was on the witness stand. He thought he had a date,

7:37

I think at one point, and.

7:39

Romni Ga is one of He was a

7:41

pretty high up FTX person, race.

7:43

Very high up. I kind of half

7:45

thought that a couple of things

7:48

from other things from the book were going to make their way

7:50

in via the prosecution. And

7:54

we found out that the book was apparently disallowed

7:56

or something. I got a note

7:58

today that the Wall Street Journal I guess it's in the

8:00

transcripts reported that the

8:02

defense tried to introduce a passage from the book,

8:05

and we're told they couldn't do it.

8:07

Yeah, was doing a side panel, so

8:09

we couldn't hear it in quirt.

8:10

If you'd ask me what was going to be introduced from

8:12

the book? And I thought, how could it not be?

8:16

Sam telling me when

8:18

I asked him

8:21

what he would have said if someone had directly,

8:23

precisely asked him the question, is

8:26

Alameda subjected to the same

8:28

risk engine as every other trader

8:30

on on FTX? And he says,

8:32

I would have made a word, Salid, or I would have or

8:35

I have found some way to answer a different question. I

8:37

just thought, wow, so damning that that would Yeah,

8:40

how did that and not find its way in? But

8:42

it didn't. It just shows you that, like telling a story

8:44

in a courtroom is different from telling the story as

8:47

you would as a as a writer.

8:49

What was it like to hear because moments

8:51

that you spent with Sam came up in court

8:53

right Like they asked him about when

8:55

he took a private debt to a Super Bowl

8:57

game.

8:58

I remember that it was a private plane because I was on the

9:00

plane.

9:02

You don't not recall.

9:04

I don't not recall, and in fact I can. I

9:06

can give you blow by a blow of

9:09

being on the plane. Kind of. I mostly remember

9:11

who was on the plane. I remember

9:13

conversations from the super Bowl. I

9:16

mean, I could kind of understand when he says,

9:18

I don't remember exactly what I said to this journalist

9:20

or that journalist. That I understand. You

9:22

know, it's like one interview after another you just forget.

9:25

But stuff you do like

9:27

that seems stranger. Like he

9:29

was asked if he had dinner with Bill

9:32

Clinton in the Prime Minister of the Bahamas,

9:35

and he kind of basically tried to say no,

9:37

and then he said he wasn't sure of Yeah, he said.

9:39

He didn't know if it was a dinner, but it

9:41

was an evening gathering.

9:44

It was during his crypto Bahamas thing last

9:46

April. And it was a moment because they showed

9:48

a video of them all together, and

9:51

that was kind of a cool moment because Clinton appointed

9:54

Lewis Kaplan to the bench. I mean, so

9:56

scout Kaplan was seeing his benefactor

9:59

up there on the screen. But I did, you

10:01

know, I did have a thought about

10:04

the prosecution's strategy

10:08

of trying to make the case that Sam

10:10

was trying to basically

10:12

bribe the Prime Minister of

10:14

the Bahamas.

10:15

Yeah, I wanted to bring that up with you because they

10:17

also mentioned that he said he was going

10:19

to pay off the national debt of the Bahamas, which

10:21

is also in your book, and.

10:23

I've never seen it anywhere else. That was so

10:26

not in the beginning, an

10:29

attempt to bribe the Prime Minister of the

10:31

Bahamas. It was an idea

10:33

that it was one of the many bonkers ideas

10:35

Sam had, including like paying Trump five billion

10:37

dollars not to run for president, that he had

10:40

immediately upon arrival in the Bahamas

10:42

when they first moved the company there days

10:44

after, because he was he was having trouble

10:46

getting his whole company

10:49

to move from Hong Kong, and especially a lot of the Chinese

10:52

people staff said there's no place to

10:54

put their kids in school. The roads had botholes.

10:56

You're complaining about the.

10:57

Country, and he

11:00

was, so he was like, I'll fix the country.

11:02

I'll fix the country. Yes, that's exactly

11:04

what it was. He thought. He didn't know what he was thinking.

11:06

Maybe I'll have to do this in order to attract

11:08

the ten to come work in the Bahamas. So

11:11

that was the original notion. But

11:13

anyway, the thought I had about that was, no

11:15

matter what happens in this trial, and it seems

11:17

unlikely that anything's

11:19

going to happen but a conviction, they're supposed to be a second

11:22

trial in March or April

11:24

with these other charges that the Bahamas government

11:27

had not agreed to, and

11:29

that they have to agree to allow them to proceed

11:32

with the charges in order to bring

11:34

them to even have that trial. And

11:36

it seemed a strange strategy, indeed, to

11:38

antagonize the Prime Minister of the Bahamas

11:41

before you're asking the Bahamas permission

11:43

to do this all over again. That surprised

11:46

me a bit, but it also made me wonder

11:48

if the prosecutions basically decided

11:51

that they're going to win so big and Sam's going to go away

11:53

for so many years that there's never going to be a second trial.

11:56

That's what I've That's kind of what I've assumed.

11:58

The second trial would be very interesting because

12:00

a lot of American politicians who will be implicated,

12:03

and that that could be

12:05

a show. One of Sam's

12:08

advisors suggested

12:10

to me a weird possibility

12:12

that if Sam is convicted

12:14

and remanded to the Metropolitan

12:16

Detention Center, awaiting sentencing

12:19

from the judge. That the judge

12:21

could actually wait to sentence

12:23

him for you know, many many

12:25

months and allow the second trial

12:27

to happen before he even sentenced him

12:30

for the first.

12:32

Just actually, yeah, because sentencing can

12:34

normally take a while.

12:36

Yeah, And so that is it's conceived.

12:38

It's gonna be up to captain. But it's conceivable

12:41

that Katherlin could will into being the

12:43

second trial, which apparently would be in his courtroom

12:45

too.

12:46

Oh my god, really, we could all renate.

12:49

There are things that made

12:51

an impression on me. The cross

12:53

examination over the two days. It

12:55

surprised me that Sam, if Sam was going to testify,

12:58

and he did as he did, if you're

13:00

going to scheme up a hail Mary, you've got

13:02

to throw the pass. And I felt

13:04

he didn't throw the pass. I felt like that they're

13:06

not answering, kind of choking it off and not

13:09

responding to the prosecution made

13:12

him look evasive to the jury,

13:14

that his one one hope was to be

13:16

radically open. I thought, but

13:20

that might be just stupid. But I

13:22

thought, if you're going to if.

13:23

You're gonna go through, you're already in that

13:25

world though right of like, that's right.

13:27

That's right, that's that's right. The

13:30

other thing is it's started lurking in the background

13:32

because it was it's like a

13:34

buzz in my head when I'm listening to the prosecutors

13:37

because their line, their insistent line,

13:39

is you stole the money, you stole the money.

13:41

The sin, through my eyes, is

13:44

that he risks the money without permission.

13:46

He borrowed it and put it at risk without asking

13:49

anybody's permission, and he

13:51

put people at risk without

13:53

their consent, which is something he

13:55

does pretty naturally. He does

13:57

it in his romantic life,

14:00

he does it in his relationship

14:03

with his employees. Some of the characters were

14:05

particularly upset that he put them in a position of lying

14:07

for him. I always felt like the way they were

14:09

coming at him wasn't capturing the spirit

14:11

of the Yeah, I hear you.

14:13

I think so. Soon had one time where

14:15

she said, you know, would you say that you're

14:18

someone who would take a huge risk and

14:20

risk a big loss or something? Right,

14:24

the one time she kind of got at it, and when

14:26

she said that that's something maybe like I

14:28

actually think maybe she does understand

14:31

same makeman freed. Yeah, but

14:34

maybe the story of him as a gambler,

14:37

isn't It's a slightly more complicated story

14:40

than just him as a thief, right, right, You

14:42

have a little bit more sympathy for a gambler than

14:44

a crook, right, And he was both,

14:47

so she could choose a story that worked best.

14:49

And while it's very hard for

14:52

a person to contrive

14:54

a self defense after

14:57

a simple theft, if I steal

14:59

your person run off with it, it's totally understandable

15:02

what I did. But if

15:04

I put you at risk because

15:06

I've misjudged the risk.

15:07

And isn't that the gambler mindset, like

15:10

being forever optimistic and always

15:13

believing in yourself and that it will work

15:15

out, which is why you can always continue

15:17

to take risks well.

15:19

And the added twist being that it's

15:21

conceivable that it could

15:24

work out, It could work after so

15:27

that's even weirder, right, So it's

15:29

conceivable. The money is there

15:31

and more because this stake

15:34

in anthropic.

15:34

But at the end of the day, like even if you're

15:36

a good gambler, doesn't it you know, doesn't

15:39

it always come does anyone just always

15:41

win in the end? Like it was always going

15:43

to come crushing down?

15:45

Yeah, eventually, And the way this place was run, it was

15:47

chaos. Something was going to happen. Judging Sam

15:49

will be right back. So

15:58

I have a question for you, because maybe

16:01

this isn't an odd thing about this trial, but it seems like

16:03

an odd thing to me about this trial that

16:06

a lot of the facts were agreed upon, like

16:08

the fact fact that the money was in the wrong place

16:11

from the start, and that the reason

16:13

the money was in the wrong place was this risk

16:15

engine exemption and this this FIAT

16:17

at account where they were taking deposits

16:19

directly in Alameda rather than taking them into

16:22

FTX. When they find

16:24

out that the money's not

16:26

just in the wrong place, but that it's at risk,

16:29

So when they know, and then

16:32

what they do about what they know? That

16:35

was sort of what was at issue during this whole

16:37

trial, and the prosecutors

16:39

never really go back before May of last year

16:42

in their in their argument.

16:43

About this right briefly but

16:45

mostly are.

16:46

So my question is, having

16:48

listened to this whole trial, when do you think

16:50

Sam Bankman Freed knew that

16:54

this huge sum of money was in the wrong place And

16:57

when did you think he was really worried it was that right?

16:59

I don't think that mattered to him I.

17:01

Think that's true. It didn't even occur to him. It's

17:03

just a big post. Yeah, okay, so that's that's

17:05

which is so I agree with that. Then. So

17:07

second and the second part of this is when

17:09

do you think he was

17:13

actually alarmed and

17:15

being devious about it?

17:16

Okay? I think it's weird because

17:18

in all of the conversations that even

17:21

Adam Yddia, Caroline

17:23

Gary, and Nishad recount,

17:26

he's always acting a bit weird in those conversations,

17:28

Like even in their stories, he's

17:30

not acting like a man who's like, we're

17:33

in a terrible situation. You know, even

17:36

in their stories he's kind of saying, but

17:38

our nett acid value is okay. Like

17:40

he sounds always a little

17:43

bit worried, but no one ever describes him as panicked,

17:45

even you know, after everything has crashed,

17:47

when he's talking to can Sun about asking

17:50

him for legal you know, legal

17:52

reason for why the money could be in the wrong place, he doesn't

17:54

even sound that worried. Right, His

17:57

reactions don't really ever seem to match what

17:59

they you think they should be, I guess, and all these

18:01

stories his reactions read odd

18:03

to me.

18:04

Do you find him an interesting character? Still?

18:06

He just reminds me of like those

18:08

guys at the lunch table who are really good at math and

18:10

science talk forever

18:13

and you're just like, none of this is actually relevant

18:15

to my life. And

18:17

then but I wouldn't

18:19

say that. I feel like I completely understand

18:22

him. And maybe that is partly why I woke up at

18:24

two ten this morning and slept

18:26

on, you know, a poncho and

18:29

my laptop is because I did

18:32

want to see him talk, because I was hoping that

18:34

if I could see him. I

18:36

think I do understand him.

18:38

So, but you do feel imm elusive. You don't feel

18:41

like you completely understand it.

18:43

I think you're right. I think

18:45

if I felt like I could confidently say

18:47

I understand him, I wouldn't have been so

18:50

keen on feeling like I had to see him.

18:53

The second question is does

18:55

it surprise you now

18:58

you've heard this, all the evidence, you've

19:00

heard all the testimony, that

19:03

no one identified the problem

19:05

like that.

19:06

You know, people were worried about FTX and elom

19:09

relationship, but that no one was No

19:11

one suggested that actually Alameda

19:14

was just taking and using ftx's money.

19:16

Yeah, I think there's a reason no one

19:18

called uh huh it didn't make It didn't make

19:20

any sense. Like, it wouldn't make a lot of

19:22

sense for Alameda to, I

19:25

don't know, get preferential access to customers

19:27

trading data and do on

19:30

FTX what high frequency traders

19:32

do on the New York stocky stage and it's

19:34

legal there. That would make

19:36

a lot of sense. It

19:39

was so dumb for the all for these

19:41

principles. His wealth was all tied

19:43

up in just the success of FTX.

19:46

To allow Alameda to do that, you

19:49

don't guess it. It's not an obvious crime

19:51

to commit. The

19:54

obvious thing to do end of twenty

19:56

nineteen, beginning twenty twenty, when FTX

19:58

is just exploding, like in a good way,

20:03

is do everything keep FTX safe.

20:07

That's the obvious thing to do, and

20:10

like either get rid of Alameda or do this.

20:13

Alameda is is in the beginning

20:15

very helpful. But when the minute Alomed is not really necessary

20:18

to make markets on FTX, the

20:20

minute it becomes unimportant there, you

20:23

do everything to

20:26

distance it. You can get rid of it. You

20:28

do everything to preserve FTX because it's a source

20:30

of such vast wealth. You

20:32

don't jeopardize it by making weird

20:35

venture capital investments with

20:38

customers money in Alameda, it's

20:40

just dumb.

20:41

Why that's I mean, I have been wondering

20:43

why.

20:44

Actually, yeah, the trial, the trial

20:46

has not asked answered the question. Right

20:48

the trial. I guess if you're a juror and you're

20:51

sitting there and you'd have to really

20:53

not be paying too close attention, you could, but you might

20:55

come away if you got to ask it at a dinner

20:57

party. Why did this guy do that? You might

20:59

say, Oh, he wanted to fly on private planes and

21:02

hang out with Tom Brady, or.

21:04

Name the stadium after his company. You have those sorts

21:06

of reasons.

21:07

Yeah, but he could have done anyway.

21:10

He didn't need he didn't need to

21:12

do what he did in Alameda to do all that other

21:15

stuff. My answer is he was going infinite.

21:17

His ambition was so grandiose.

21:20

Forty billion wasn't enough. He needed

21:22

hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of billions to do the

21:24

thing he thought he wanted to do.

21:27

And so he's he's playing it's

21:30

all board game. Everything in

21:32

Sam Bangerfree's life is a game, but

21:34

he's playing the game with those kind of

21:37

sums in mind. So Alamed

21:39

is that all of a sudden becomes relevant that

21:43

most people would have been incredibly satisfied.

21:46

It would have been like risk averse

21:49

once they had a company that was value of forty

21:51

billion dollars, right, and that

21:54

for him it's just the anti It's just like the beginning

21:57

of the game. Anyway. So what's

22:00

where we have to look forward to. I'm going back home

22:02

in the morning. You're going to go into the courthouse.

22:05

What happens tomorrow?

22:06

The prosecution will say they're clar

22:09

argument, Then the defense says they're closing argument.

22:11

That's two to three hours each and then the

22:14

prosecution does like a forty five minute

22:16

rebuttal. They said it would take about forty five minutes

22:19

to the defense's closing arguments.

22:21

So the prosecution gets to go last.

22:23

The prosecution gets to go last, and

22:25

so soon who I think will be doing the last

22:27

rebuttal. She actually asked if she could

22:29

get a podium without a monitor and move

22:31

it to face the jury, and Judge

22:34

Couplan said, no, there's a reason the podiums

22:36

don't move.

22:40

You remember the Saturday Night Live skitt

22:42

was shown Spicer as the moving his

22:44

podium around and ramming it into the jury.

22:47

I know, I know what that just that just that

22:50

just popped to mind, Daniel

22:52

Daniel Sessen ramming the podium into

22:54

the jury until that.

22:55

I don't think that's true. I mean we

22:57

were talking about how so soon you

23:00

know, to your if so Soon told me I

23:02

was guilty, I would, I would believe it. I would

23:05

apologize for everything I'd ever done in my life.

23:07

All Right, So you have fun tomorrow.

23:10

I'll be on a plane tomorrow and I will talk

23:12

again on Thursday.

23:14

Yes, I speak for myself and all the journalists

23:16

to say that we're gonna miss you, Well, I'll.

23:18

Miss you too. It's been

23:20

fun. See ya hy. We'll

23:26

be back in your feed soon with more expert

23:28

analysis and news from Sam bankman Fried's

23:30

trial. Thanks for listening. This

23:34

episode of Judging Sam was hosted by Me,

23:37

Michael Lewis. Lydia

23:39

Gencott is our court reporter. Katherine

23:41

Girardeau and Nisha Venken produced this

23:43

show. Sophie Crane is our editor.

23:46

Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi

23:48

and John Evans of stell Wagon Symphonette.

23:51

Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries.

23:54

Got a question or comment for me, There's a

23:56

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23:59

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